Murder in D&D...

[Scribble]

So I was reading the OoTS comic the other day... If you don't know in the current storyline, one of the characters has a dragon out for revenge because that character killed its child.

And then I started thinking about the idea of murder, and how it would be seen in a D&D universe. Would it really be seen in the same way our world sees it?

In our world, once someone is dead, that's it. No coming back (at least in theory!) So the idea of murdering someone, and taking away their limited bility to experience life, and to take away other people's ability to have that person in their life... So it's looked apon (rightfully so) as something horrifying and reprehensible.

But in D&D land, people CAN come back. They have spells and stuff to make it happen, and they're not THAT expensive.

So would the idea of murder have such a dramatic impact on the people of the world?

I can see premeditated assasination where you take steps to ensure even the spells won't work would probably be seen in the same way we see mudrder. Possibly even worse, because the person is specifically taking steps to ensure the person stays gone.

But stuff like manslaughter? Or crimes of passion? Would it be a simple fine? pay for the person to come back or serve some sort of work as a slave or soemthig until it's paid off?

What do you al think? What do you do in your campaign worlds?

 

[Engilbrand]

There are limits on Raise Dead, plus some basic assumptions of the world throw off your idea. For PCs, you would be correct.
Raise Dead- The ritual mentions that only someone with a destiny could still be raised. Most people don't have a destiny.
Po' People- Most people are poor. Really poor. Farmers would be lucky to see a few pieces of gold at any one point. When you start talking about thousands of gold to raise someone, only adventurers and the incredibly wealthy would even be able to scrounge up the money. They'd also need to deal with that first problem mentioned about the Raise Dead ritual.
If you put these together, you're dealing with a society that would treat murder about the same way that we do.

 

[Scribble]

There are limits on Raise Dead, plus some basic assumptions of the world throw off your idea. For PCs, you would be correct.
Raise Dead- The ritual mentions that only someone with a destiny could still be raised. Most people don't have a destiny.
Po' People- Most people are poor. Really poor. Farmers would be lucky to see a few pieces of gold at any one point. When you start talking about thousands of gold to raise someone, only adventurers and the incredibly wealthy would even be able to scrounge up the money. They'd also need to deal with that first problem mentioned about the Raise Dead ritual.
If you put these together, you're dealing with a society that would treat murder about the same way that we do.

Well, the destiny thing is somewhat new to the game. I don't remember it being a part of the raise dead spells of older editions... unless I missed it?

But aside from that, I'm not sure I agree. The cost thing isn't so much of an issue. I'd think in a place where raise dead was a possibility we'd see things like either the state doing it as a service for "unlawfully" terminated individuals. Paid for by the offender, either through a fine, or through slavery of some type? maybe they have to join the army.

Or we might see a business that makes it's money through loaning gold for raise dead costs with HIGH interest rates the offender pays...

Or perhaps the family of the slain person gets the offender as a slave. They can pay off a raise dead spel by selling the offender to another family.

I just don't think it would be viewed the same.

 

[C_M2008]

"I can always have more sons, but 500 gp isn't something I can replace"

It be like now, commonfolk would view it the same and rich famous folk(celebs) could buy their way out of it.

 

[Rechan]

If you look at the origins of some of the various undead species, they rise from either: victims of violent deaths, or from murderers. (in the case of mohrgs and hangmen, from executed murderers).

So, I would think that murder would be a serious, if for no other reason, it would create monsters after the fact.

 

[jmucchiello]

But aside from that, I'm not sure I agree. The cost thing isn't so much of an issue. I'd think in a place where raise dead was a possibility we'd see things like either the state doing it as a service for "unlawfully" terminated individuals. Paid for by the offender, either through a fine, or through slavery of some type? maybe they have to join the army.

For a normal peasant, 500gp is more money than he, his wife, and his 10 children and their spouses will earn their entire lives. The price is very much so an issue. For a merchant, 500gp is probably a couple of years of gross income. For a baron, 500gp is probably equal to his yearly obligation to his king. Doubling your peasants' taxes so you can raise your dead mistress from the dead isn't going to make your peasants happy.

D&D economics are skewed toward the adventuring party. There hundreds of forum posts where anyone who has tried to make sense of it ends up committed to an asylum.

How does the state benefit by giving out 500 gp loans? 500 gp could be the entire tax base for a large barony. If 20 people die in an orc raid, is the local baron going to cough up 10,000 gp to raise them all by raising his taxes 1900%?

 

[Scribble]

For a normal peasant, 500gp is more money than he, his wife, and his 10 children and their spouses will earn their entire lives. The price is very much so an issue. For a merchant, 500gp is probably a couple of years of gross income. For a baron, 500gp is probably equal to his yearly obligation to his king. Doubling your peasants' taxes so you can raise your dead mistress from the dead isn't going to make your peasants happy.

D&D economics are skewed toward the adventuring party. There hundreds of forum posts where anyone who has tried to make sense of it ends up committed to an asylum.

How does the state benefit by giving out 500 gp loans? 500 gp could be the entire tax base for a large barony. If 20 people die in an orc raid, is the local baron going to cough up 10,000 gp to raise them all by raising his taxes 1900%?

I understand what you're saying. 500gp IS a lot and probably unreachable for many peasants.

What I'm talking about though is the psychological impact of the fact that there IS a possibility of coming back from death, and how that changes the view of things. (Despite whether you can afford it or not.)

Again I don't think people would look at it like Oh drat killed my son eh? Ah well, whatever it happens!

I just don't think it would be quite the same.

Look at our own world, and the difference betwen how people view a murderer and say, a theif.

The theif might have taken everything you have, and left you pretty much unable to recover, but when was the last time you heard people arguing in favor of a death penalty for thievery?

It's a crime yes, and veiwed seriously yes, but not to the degree of murder.

I'm thinking a similar thing might happen in a world where murder wasn't always permanent.

It's similar to how I feel that murder in a race that was technically imortal would probably carry a greater taboo then even in our own world.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

If you look at the origins of some of the various undead species, they rise from either: victims of violent deaths, or from murderers. (in the case of mohrgs and hangmen, from executed murderers).

So, I would think that murder would be a serious, if for no other reason, it would create monsters after the fact.

On top of that, we got the "Pet Cemetery" monsters in Open Grave. So even if violent death/murder doesn't create a monster a botched Raise Dead ritual would.

I imagine Raise Dead would be a very controlled thing probably by the clergy, military, government, guilds, etc. Since we are talking about control too it would probably cost exponentially more then it is worth in material to do so. Hmm... Perhaps if there is some manner of court system involved a murderer as part of his sentence would have to pay for the Raise Dead ritual for his victim.

I imagine professional assassin teams would have learnt all the tricks too Raise Dead. Heck imagine a assassin organization that has made deals with Shadowfell creatures to hold back/contain any souls there that are to be raised that they killed.

 

[MadMaxim]

I see what you're getting at here, Scribble, and I agree with you somewhat to the extent that if death isn't as permanent as in real life, the penalty will be less severe because death can be regarded as mostly an inconvenience rather than a permanent, unchangable state.

I could see the offender paying for raising the dead person and most likely have to pay damages such as lost income and the like to the dead person if he/she is resurrected.

It's really an interesting discussion because it raises some fundamental questions about how punishable certain criminal acts are. As an example, here in Denmark, you can be imprisoned for 5 years or up to life in prison for murder, whereas forgery of money can land you in prison for up to 12 years. The difference between a life and money can make it seem strange that counterfeiting money is punished so severely, but that's because the entire monetary system risks collapsing, if everyone thinks they can just print their own money and use them. So it all depends on what you're trying to protect with your laws and what the consequences of not protecting it can be.

 

[Rechan]

How about this nugget.

In a world where there is definite PROOF that:

1) The Gods exist.
2) The Afterlife exists.
3) There is an actual Heaven and Hell (or multiple variations of them).
4) It is not impossible to document the actual passage of a soul to one of those destinations.

Imagine what that does to the fear of death. How about the fear of actual, documented eternal damnation?