Another Cease and Desist Letter: 4E Powercards

[the Jester]

Yes I will be buying the ones I need.

Ahh, but if you can get them for free online, you don't really need to buy them, do you?

 

[the Jester]

I do remember Scott R. saying recently in a post that he was investigating websites for IP violations. I thnk that post was in response to a "Where's the new GSL?" post.

Actually, I suspect that post had more to do with a certain FREAKIN' CRAZY dude who thought he was "suing" WotC by putting the three core 3e books, and hmm, the Greyhawk Gazeteer or something, up for free download on his website.

 

[Tarrl]

Ahh, but if you can get them for free online, you don't really need to buy them, do you?

Well if they would have had the char generator working from the beginning, there would have been no need for anyone to create cards or char generators that helped you do the math. And I am a goof, I still would have bought the cards for characters I play a lot.

 

[Imaro]

So does WotC. There are tons of D&D sites with fan made bits up that they aren't making them take down.

Yet...

I am not as aware of the general RPG field out there as I used to be (just not enough time at my age). How many of these are duplicates of products the company either has released or are about to release?

Because if none of them are then it is sort of comparing apples to oranges. It's hard to hold a company up for allowing fans to create tools they have no intention of marketing and then reviling a company for not allowing that when the tools steps on the tools of a product the company is releasing.

You know I could almost get behind this... if WotC hadn't first bumbled the DDI which was supposed to be released at the same time as 4e... then produced, by most accounts a piss poor character sheet with misleading advertisement for sale. I actually can even relate to a site like Ema's where money is being charged being taken down... but this guy, Ryan, probably helped more than hindered anything with 4e up to this point. IMO this is more a case of allowing something to be created because you messed up and you need some time to get your act together and then crushing it now that you're finally doing something.

I guess I especially feel this because it was a great tool that I actually found and used the second time my group tried 4e...WotC sure wasn't offering us anything to use at the time (not even PDF files of power cards) and I don't think there's any way we would have played 4e without some easier way (than using the books) to reference powers. I mean what use are the powers without the rulebooks anyway. No... WotC saw a popular (almost necessary) accessory and is trying to commercialize it, I have no problem with this but honestly let the quality of your product get me to buy it... not your destruction of potentially useful sites.

Honestly this makes me wonder how well WotC's products and DDI are doing... you'd think if they were doing extraordinary they wouldn't be sweating little things like this. But that's neither here nor there and admittedly I could be totally off base with that.

I also wonder what's next to be outlawed, character sheets? There are still tons of sites with power cards are they all going to be shut down as well and all their content (not just the PC's) lost? Guess I better start downloading just in case I do want to play 4e.

 

[the Jester]

IMO this is more a case of allowing something to be created because you messed up and you need some time to get your act together and then crushing it now that you're finally doing something.

Or maybe WotC didn't know about the site until recently. I certainly didn't. How many people in this thread didn't either? Tons, I bet. Why are you assuming that the folks in legal at WotC are omniscient?

 

[Azgulor]

I'm on WotC's side on this one, hands down. Sounds like Ryan's site was pretty neat and had some cool functionality, but also sounds like it pretty clearly violated WotC's IP rights.

If you want to put up a fansite for BLANK power cards, go ahead!

If you want to put up a fansite for power cards with prefilled into straight outta WotC's rulebooks . . . . you deserve a smackdown.

Why should WotC allow some fan who didn't do his homework to create a site (or product) that directly competes with their online offerings (Charcter Builder) and print offerings (this spring's power card decks) using their own IP? Expecting them to allow that kind of crap for "public relations" or as a "fan service" is just ridiculous IMO.

In order for me to agree with the above, I would need to understand the timing involved -- and I'll state up front I don't.

If WotC announced/advertised their own purchasable power card decks, whathave you before the site went live then the following paragraph is null and void:

If the site in question has been in operation for some time preceeding WotC's announcement of purchasable power cards, then WotC when debating about making such a product, would have to know that "unofficial" versions would be on the web, just as there are with character sheets. At that point, it's a CHOICE whether to ignore or take legal action to remove the free stuff.


Which leads me to what is probably my biggest gripe against some of the more, shall we say, emphatic WotC defenders: the "Might makes right" argument.

Just because WotC can charge for something doesn't mean it should. I'm a sales engineer, so I've seen where a "value-add" given for free engenders customer loyalty and where charging for a value-add pisses a happy customer off. I mean, are the potential revenues for power cards really that great? If they are, then WotC made the right move - for WotC.

One of the greatest, yet most highly sought, intangibles of any business is customer loyalty. Often, competition forces a business to provide value-adds for discounted prices or for free where they would otherwise charge for them. This is good - for the customer because they're paying less money.

Now as I said, I don't know the timing involved, nor do I know the market demand for power cards, or what price point that market will bear - so I'm not blaming WotC or accusing them of anything. It is what it is.

But one of the most perplexing things about 4e, the edition wars, etc. is the
seemingly slavish loyalty whereby some people appear to applaud WotC's choices that arguably only benefit WotC. WotC took back the Dungeon/Dragon/DragonLance license --> "Why not, it's within their right to do so!"
No OGL or d20 system license equivalents for 4e, only the GSL --> "Why would WotC want competing products" (although this one is almost immediately followed by how insignificant 3PPs are to WotC's revenues...), etc.
BTW, these are examples of arguments I've seen and/or participated in, I'm not looking to rehash them.

Now all of the above may be the best possible move for WotC. Business is business and if I were on their side of the table, maybe I'd make the same decisions. But as a gamer, a GM, and a customer, some of these moves decrease choices and add expense (if I choose to purchase, of course). That's just an objective fact - whether it's good or bad is left to each person to decide. WotC doing something just because they can due to their size, market share, or brand recognition seems like poor reasons for a customer to justify such actions, IMO.

If Power Card revenues will rival that of a rulebook, then maybe it's worth it. But if they didn't come up with the idea until after fans posted homemade ones on websites...well just because they can doesn't necessarily mean they should.

BTW, none of the "Might makes right" discussion is directed at Dire Bear, only my comments about the timing. The whole situation reminded me of the "might makes right" phenomena I'm referencing.

 

[Krensky]

So again, any numbers on actualy RPG piracy theft?

I'd be willing to bet it's so close to zero only an insurance company would notice. I have a hard time seeing someone jumping a container ship to steal RPG books.

Copyright violation, while wrong and, sadly, a crime (it should be a civil matter) is neither theft or piracy, despite what people want to think. Piracy is warlike action (typically a violent crime) on an ocean, lake, or river by a non-state actor and theft or larceny (two subtly different things) require tangible property (ie, intellectual property does not count). If, by means of force, you take a case of D&D book from a ship, that is piracy theft of Wizard's property (assuming it's stil theirs and not the recipients at that point, but that's not important.)

 

[Azgulor]

Every time I see a thread like this, I invoke a silent "thank you" to Ryan Dancey.

QFT, brother.

 

[Imaro]

Or maybe WotC didn't know about the site until recently. I certainly didn't. How many people in this thread didn't either? Tons, I bet. Why are you assuming that the folks in legal at WotC are omniscient?

I'm going to assume they knew about it if they did the most modest of investigation into 4e powercards... put it into google and it's the first or second site that pops up. I find it harder to believe that WotC (or at least WotC's marketing department) doesn't keep track of what pops up (at least the top 3 or 4 sites) on search terms related to their products.

EDIT: In fact I would say there are so many fan created sets of 4e power cards with information that we will be seeing this happen quite a bit in the coming days.

 

[joethelawyer]

Every time I see a thread like this, I invoke a silent "thank you" to Ryan Dancey.

i friended him on facebook and sent him a msg saying just that, thank you for the ogl.