Fighters didn't matter after 11th level?

[Storminator]

. . . what? Are you serious? My first thought on this is that you're pulling my leg.

I have the D&D4 PH, and I've looked through it at the low-level stuff (up to around level 6-8). I'll have to look through it in more detail up to the higher levels.

OK, I just looked through the D&D4 PH. The invisibilities can last longer than 1 round, and I didn't see feats that let a fighter plane shift, teleport, or fly. So you must just be joshing me.

Bullgrit

There are invisibilities that can last longer, but the spell Invisibility lasts until the end of your next turn, with no sustain.

As others have said, Wizard multiclass feat (gets Arcana for free), Ritual Caster feat (Planar Portal, Linked Portal, etc), and Acolyte Power feat (choose Fly as 16th level utility power).

So at 16th level (when Fly is available), having spent 3 of 10 feats, and devoted some ability points to INT (this is the most stressing cost, IMO), you have a fighter that can plane shift, teleport, and fly, along with any number of other rituals as a bene.

One other thing I thought of later, is that wizard ranges are drastically smaller. In 3e, that greater inviso, flying wizard could be attacking from 600+ feet up. In 4e he's still within longbow range. Granted a fighter doesn't have his awesome powers at range, but he can easily get some shots in.

PS

 

[Bullgrit]

OK. So it's not a joke. It's just . . . something.

Bullgrit

 

[Storminator]

OK. So it's not a joke. It's just . . . something.

Bullgrit

And that something would be the ability of any class to perform the major, campaign defining functions that were previously reserved for the primary spellcasting classes.

PS

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Count me in as another person who simply hasn't seen the "CLERIC/WIZARD TAKES OVER THE ENTIRE PARTY" problem.

A serious question for you Professor Cirno; What levels do you typically play the game at?

Related to that:
What is a typical party layout for you?
What kinds of monsters does the DM typically use?

One thing I have noticed with any discussions in these boards about any supposedly 'common' problem is that for every 18 or 23 people who say the problem has come up for them and regularly poses difficulties, there will be 3 or 4 for whom the problem has never come up.

Just because you have never seen something come up regularly or at all in play does not mean that it is not a problem for many others.

Anecdotally, it is a reasonably safe assumption that the primary spell casting classes are the ones who are typically going to be able to pull something off that the DM had not have accounted for.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Bullgrit]

One thing I have noticed with any discussions in these boards about any supposedly 'common' problem is that for every 18 or 23 people who say the problem has come up for them and regularly poses difficulties, there will be 3 or 4 for whom the problem has never come up.

Well, going back through this thread, I find:

Yes, it is a problem: 19

No, it is not a problem: 13

Other/unknown/both: 6

Majority says yes it was a problem, but hardly a 20-4 ratio.

Bullgrit

 

[Jhaelen]

Well, going back through this thread, I find:

Yes, it is a problem: 19

No, it is not a problem: 13

Other/unknown/both: 6

Majority says yes it was a problem, but hardly a 20-4 ratio.

Bullgrit

You may add me to the 'Yes, it is a problem' group

Maybe you should have created a poll. I didn't post yet, because my opinion was already well represented by others.

 

[Henrix]

People must have had a greatly different experience than I did with high level wizards. I remember being completely frustrated with spell resistance.

1. Ok, I cast fireball...It doesn't beat his spell resistance
2. Next round....I cast fireball......Woot beat the resistance.......saved for half.
3. Don't beat the resistance again....etc
4. Rinse and repeat so that only 25% of spells really hit for significant damage. Meanwhile the fighter is kicking arse and taking names every round.

1. Why is your 'high level' wizard bothering with fireball. A mediocre spell at best, and not worth it at above 11th level.

2. Why ever are you casting a spell that is stopped by Spell Resistance? And why don't you have spell penetration and items that help with that? Are you sure you are a high level wizard?

 

[Bullgrit]

Maybe you should have created a poll. I didn't post yet, because my opinion was already well represented by others.

I didn't make a poll for this because I wasn't asking for how many people saw this problem versus how many didn't -- I wasn't looking for a tug of war match. I was asking for info/examples of the problem -- I was looking to understand the problem.

[Edit: Oh, and I wasn't asking for people's opinions, I was asking for anecdotes and examples. So you can still pipe up with that.]

I only went back and counted up the "votes" because when Lord Zardoz said, "...for every 18 or 23 people who say the problem has come up for them and regularly poses difficulties, there will be 3 or 4 for whom the problem has never come up." That statement was demonstrably incorrect, right in this thread, and I felt it unfair -- it seemed to suggest that those who hadn't seen the problem were a very small minority, and could be discounted.

I mean, 19 to 13 is very far from 20-4. And if you consider that I was specifically asking for people to tell me about the problem -- basically inviting those players who have seen the problem to post their experience -- it is no surprise that there's more people here saying they've seen it. I was directly asking for people to come in here and say they have seen the problem. I'm surprised the ratio wasn't much higher -- it could have been 20-0, and it wouldn't reflect any real ratio of seen/not seen.

Plus, it always annoys me when someone gives numbers for something based solely on their own biased feel. I'm a data geek -- I like hard data. Feel and bias just grates my nerves.

86.3% of ENWorld posters will state something as fact without any real evidence outside their own belief or desire for it to be true. ;-)

Bullgrit

 

[OchreJelly]

If a problem exists with a game, should it not be addressed? In the early days of 3E development Ryan Dancey discovered that the key problem TSR had was that it didn't listen to its customers. WotC can be credited with starting a process of actually listening and doing their homework to address issues players had with the game. By doing actual market research, and performing focus groups, surveys etc. they found some surprising results.

I feel like I can safely say that even back then there wasn't 100% agreement among gamers as to what was a problem with the game and what wasn't. But if their findings were such that a certain number of players claim that "THACO is hard" or for a pre-4E example, "grapple rules are a pain" then I think it's pretty fair to flag that as something to change, even if it was never a problem at your table.

I guess I count myself as one of the lucky ones in that when the punchlist of improvements was revealed for 4E I found myself saying "yes!" to every single one of them, even though WotC never asked me personally, but it was clear there were others who shared my concerns with the game.

I'm really not trying to say 4E is perfect, but my larger, meta-point is that to argue that something wasn't ever problematic at your table does not equate to the problem not existing.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

The Spotlight Interview with Rob Heinsoo at wizards.com has Rob saying this:[Bolding by me.]
Now, I haven’t played a lot of any D&D above 12th level (I’ve played some, just not a lot), so maybe that’s why this statement seems totally off to me.

Its been my experience. On one hand you have a guy with virtually no out of combat classed based utility, and on the other, you have a superhero who gets to pick which super powers he has each day. If your casters arent showing up your fighters, its because they're not trying or going out of their way to not hurt the fighter's feelings. Its Angel Summoner and the BMX Bandit. 3rd edition made it even worse for the poor guy in combat, as he couldnt even move and make all of his attacks in the same round without scrounging for some splat power that gave pounce or its equivalent.

As for adventures depending on wizards and clerics – isn’t that a fault of the adventure? I mean, if you have an adventure that only spellcasting can get the PCs through, isn’t that as bad as an adventure where spells don’t work?

I guess you could write adventures that take place in an anti-magic zone, but I think the casters would feel rightly cheated. Its magic's all encompassing "do anything" ability coupled with D&D's safe casting mechanics that make most problems easily solvable with "I cast spell x". Its a system issue, not just an adventure issue.