Fighters didn't matter after 11th level?

Oh, clearly those of us who didn't have the problem just had wizards that were lazy and stupid. After all, nobody's experiences could ever differ from yours unless they were doing something wrong :hmm:

Or they are so shocked that someone plays in a different way they just "won't beleive you" because obviously there is no other way to play the game. LAughable really.
 

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But as far as Defender, STriker, and Controller, it seems the 4e encounters are designed assuming all those roles present.
I disagree with this statement. My experience is much, much different.

I've ran many games with no controller present. The only time it shows that a controller would be useful is when there are a bucket of minions on the field.

A lack of a leader gets really obvious when the only healing in combat that's available is either 1) a potion, or 2) a second wind (of which you only get one, at the expense of a standard action).
 

I disagree with this statement. My experience is much, much different.

I've ran many games with no controller present. The only time it shows that a controller would be useful is when there are a bucket of minions on the field.

A lack of a leader gets really obvious when the only healing in combat that's available is either 1) a potion, or 2) a second wind (of which you only get one, at the expense of a standard action).

Fair enough I figured the only really necessary roles were striker and defender anyway. There really is no need for a controller or leader. Same with City of Heroes. If you had a tank and a blaster you were golden.
 

Can someone give examples of the subject (not theories on or defense of the issue)?
Plenty of people have already given you their experiences with the subject in this thread.

High-level fighter-types can dish out tons of damage in 3e, given the opportunity to make full attacks. They simply need the support of lots of magic to get into the fight (fly, haste, true seeing, etc.) and to survive being in the fight (too many protective wards to list, healing). So they definitely contribute inside of a fight, but then their one area of expertise (dealing damage) requires a lot of outside support and can be performed by just about anyone.

Outside of combat, they contribute very little. It's up to the spellcasters to identify & locate targets and move the party to & from the target. Any obstacle encountered at high levels is usually met with the fighter-types sitting back while the spellcasters figure out the proper combo of spells to bypass it.

The above is not theory, it's what I have observed while playing 3e D&D since 2000. In 1e/2e I rarely saw high levels, or when I did, the groups rarely had straight warriors. Most people were multiclassed something/caster or just straight casters.
 
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I will also say that a barbarian will not live without a leader present.

I've seen a Barbarian in play several times, and the barb is usually the first one, and the most likely to get in single-digit hit points.
 

I typically play anywhere between 1-20, though typically the games are 3-17/18.

I fully admit that wizards, clerics, and druids can bleed into multiple other classes, but that usually only happens when 1) they purposefully set themselves to do it, which is because 2) the person doing it is doing it on purpose. I've never seen a wizard/cleric/druid accidentally steal the rogue's role, for example.

The point of the problem is Casters (particularly wizards) can easily step on another classes toes - other classes cannot step on casters toes. The wizard can do much of what the rogue can do if he wishes, the rogue cannot (except to a limited degree and at great expense) do what the wizard can do.

More importantly the wizard can completely nulify the rogue but the reverse is not true. Obvious low level example: wizard lock - explicitly cannot be picked (but a wizard can use knock to open it).

People are saying that "The only way wizards aren't eclipsing everyone else is because they're trying not to." My experience has been the opposite of that. When I play as a divine or arcane caster, my primary focus is to cover things that aren't already being covered. I've yet to step on someone's toes. It's not because I'm actively saying "Oh ho ho, I better not take knock, the rogue will feel useless!" I think "Knock? We have a rogue. Don't need it."

Yes, casters have a lot of variability they can work with. They can put themselves into multiple roles. That doesn't mean they have to, or even that they do it by law of nature. It seems bizarre to have to say this, but you can make a wizard that doesn't make any other class seem useless, unless the other classes are all wizards too.

In the end, the fact is, there are people who make parties of all bards. Bards are, aha, not known for their optimization. And yet people here are claiming that's impossible to do.

Again it is a problem when you can do your role AND someone elses easily.

Besides that though, it's a bit vague to say I can do my role and not step on other's toes. It's not about doing your role all the time, it's about getting stuff done. Because casters have so many varied spells, they have more options to "get stuff done" than other classes. I for one got pretty tired of the 6 second solution to practically every problem in 3e.
 

I think Rogues get it worse than fighters at higher levels. A lot of their stealth/scouting schtick can be replaced with cheap, low-level magic. The lack of traps over 10th level in the DMG makes their trapfinding skills less important. A lot of high-level monsters seem to be immune to sneak attacks. Monsters tend to get bigger at higher levels, and it's harder to flank bigger monsters. It gets harder and harder for rogues to hit in combat because monster AC needs to scale to challenge the fighter's good BAB. Their poor Fort. and Will saves hurt them more and more because of the way save DC's scale AND because save or die and save or suck spells become more and more common.
 

Can someone give examples of the subject (not theories on or defense of the issue)?

The problem with a discussion like this is that many folks anecdotal evidence is often incomplete. This matters with references to things like play-style, campaign breadth, character choices, group dynamics, available rules supplements and so forth.

I've run several 3/3.5e campaigns. My main game ran for 6.5 years, running from 1st level to 28th level. We had 6 players consisting of a cleric, rogue, paladin, fighter (archer), wizard and first a second fighter (archer) who was later replaced by a druid. All characters eventually took prestige classes and most WotC supplements were adapted into the game.

Were the paladin and fighters outclassed by the wizard, cleric and druid at higher levels? The answer is a solid: sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Example 1: The party and associated mounts, pets, cohorts and so forth are 17-18th level. In a desperate act, they seek out the enemy assaulting the town under their protection and discover that it is a Winter Wight (CR 23). It is arrogant, toying with them as blow upon blow misses, arrows fail to render harm, its wounds repair themselves and spells bounce off of him like spitballs. The party considers fleeing to avoid a TPK, as it's clear that the Wight could finish them off if it desired to do so. But then spell number 28, from the wizard, results in a natural '1', destroying the winter wight instantly, ending the combat...the only such roll that would allow it to fail a save. Neither the archer, rogue nor paladin could have accomplished such a feat. Combat ends.

Example 2: The party is 11th-12th level, travelling into the north. While camped out on a treacherous mountain pass, giants attack. Throwing boulders from up the pass at the cave the party has camped in, battle is enjoined. Rolling a boulder before them, the giants approach, using it as as a shield for cover. The wizard summons a massive illusion to distract them, then peppers them with spells from a long distance. The cleric, by comparison, makes stew around the campfire, feeding the equally bored rogue. The Paladin makes a show of standing in the cave entrance, but only one giant closes the gap. After the wizard destroys the boulder, the archers and wizard do horrible damage to them. Combat ends.

Example 3: The heroes are 21st level and facing a full-scale Githyanki invasion force. 250 gith fighters, two astral dreadnoughts, 10 dragon-riders gith knights, 20 gith group-leaders, 4 undead ghostly gith (CR20), 2 templated githyanki gish, 1 23rd level caster. End result? The druid uses flames to wipe out dozens of gith per round. The cleric decimates the super-gith ghosts. The wizard begins destroying things left and right. The paladin begins fighting the dragonriders in jousts. The rogue sneaks up on the casters and begins murdering them in earnest. The archer uses the benefits of range and magical powers to target enemies with unerring accuracy. Players force few survivors to retreat to the astral, where they will soon follow to find and kill the Githyanki Queen herself.

Example 4: The players are racing to free slaves from a mining colony and defeat an evil clockwork abomination and his extraplanar army. Archers drop the attackers at extreme range, but then the Bodaks arrive. Only the cleric has a chance to protect the party and stop them. When the devourer attacks, the paladin only barely escapes with his soul, until the cleric puts it down. The archers and rogue are totally ineffective aginst them.


The trend I've not discussed here (without going into massive detail) is that in each combat, terrain played a major part, ranged attackers were more effective and magic was a necessity. As the levels grew higher, magic was needed simply to survive (why did the cleric sit the battle out? Because he was loaded for bear with healing and restoration powers...but those aren't terribly useful in the middle of a fire-fight). Magic could have been unbalancing if not for two things:

1.) I don't play with JERKS.
2.) The party worked as a team.

Through the majority of the game, each player could dominate in their category...though spell-casters had the opportunity to co-opt other roles if they put their minds to it....something the other characters could not. The cleric and wizard used things like Limited Wish or Miracle, but the Paladin set the game record for most damage dealt in one round (something like 230 points? I'd have to check the old story hour).

In all honesty, before I fully grasped 3e at high levels, the main threat to game balance was the archers, not the spellcasters. That's entirely my fault, though, and not the system's mistake. On the other hand, stories became much more challenging to write at first, with so many options placed in the players' hands by spells and magic items. I can see how some would run into this problem...and I think we had it happen some times.

But I can't say that it was a consistent problem for us. I worked hard to make sure that each character had their time to shine, melee and ranged fighters included.
 

I think a lot of the problem is with the style of the players and the DMs. A good DM will design encounters that challenge most/all of his or her players. If a wizard or cleric is always the star in my game, they will likely get a "reputation" and somebody that can defeat their tactics will come along & challenge them - how about another wizard of higher level, aided by a few powerful minions. (You should have seen the woman playing the cleric's jaw drop when an evil invisible baddie appeared right behind her while the rest of the party was fending off the evil cleric mounted on a wyvern...)

My party is currently at level 12 and the fighter, fighter/paladin and rogue are all very useful. The party psion is often the star, though, so I often have to come up with tactics to stymie him... but, that's mostly my fault for not knowing the rules on psionics that well.

Granted, not every encounter at higher levels will challenge every party member, though, but you can hopefully balance that out over the long run. A powerful foe that causes disease is not a great threat to the paladin that is immune to disease,
 

This problem is sometimes overblown, but it definitely existed. However, I think there are things people sometimes forget:

-Fighters and Clerics were an important duo in 3E. A fighter, paired with a cleric with good buffing spells, was a potent force. Also; spellcasters, because of their low HP, poor ACs, and terrible melee ability, needed combat classes around them to survive, even at higher levels.

-Power over time and DM Management. In 4E, the everything is equally balanced at every point in the game. And this is a fine approach. In 3E, there is more of a balance over time that some people dislike and others are fine with (I was always fine with it). Wizards trade being weak early on, for having all kinds of super cool powers later on (of course in most campaigns later on never happened, because storylines tend to collapse before you reach 14th level). Fighters start out solid, and end pretty solid, but don't get the cool powers wizards acquire at higher levels. But there is still an important balancing feature many forget. Wizards have a limited number of spells per day; and a good DM knows how to get them to use up their abilities over the course of each day. Sure a wizard have a number of real mindblowing spells; but he needs to reserve those for the right moment. This boils down to DM management. At first, I had trouble keeping wizards balanced at high level in my games. But I learned over time, how to pace encounters, and what kinds of encounters to throw, that ensured everyone participated, and that wizards had to pay attentiont to spell management at higher levels. Eventually a wizard only has low level spells to throw at his enemies; but a fighter always has the same high Base Attack and feats to use.

-Magic Items. Fighters need magic items to shine. A fighter with the right magic item, is just as cool at higher levels as a wizard.

-Power Attack. Fighters that learn to use power attack effectively, do pretty well at higher levels.

All that said, 3E is not balanced in the way 4E is. But I don't think it is broken when it comes to fighters; just more easily strained. It isn't the same kind of balance found in 4E (which is a pretty absolute balance-- and there is a trade of there in terms of how cool the spellcasters end up being); but it has a balance in the long duree thing going that works for lots of people.
 

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