10:1 illegal downloads

[SteveC]

You keep saying that WotC's pdf's are so expensive. From what I can see, their pdf's were at 70% of retail price, just like Paizo's and just like Goodman Games': Green Ronin does appear to be slightly cheaper though. Am I missing something?

Sorry for not getting back to this earlier: I have no idea how I missed it!

I think that looking at PDF prices as a percentage of the cost of the real book misses the mark, since they're totally separate products with such different uses. With that said, I looked at Goodman Games' stuff on RPGNow, and they're priced at about 60% of retail, so that's a bit better than WotC. What's more important is that the basic book is cheaper as well. I haven't looked at Paizo, since they're not making products that I use anymore, but I expect it's something similar: lower price on the print products equates to a lower price at the PDF level by the same percentage. So that's my basic answer: yes, WotC may have been selling for the same percentage, but they're also charging more for the basic product to begin with. Buying, say, a $15 print module for $10 as a PDF is easier to budget for, even though as a percentage cost, it's about the same.

With the core books, they were selling at the end for $25, which is simply more than the market was looking to pay for that kind of product in most cases. There are examples of folks who didn't have easy access to the print products buying them, as well as people who could get them at much higher prices due to their country of origin. I'm not sure what the cost for WotC books are in Denmark, but depending on that if our situations were reversed and I were over there, I might have picked up the PDFs as a cost saving measure as well.

For me, when I look at a PDF purchase, I think about what I'm getting for what I'm spending. I'm basically getting something to reference and copy and paste from for characters or adventures. For most systems, anything over about $15 just isn't worth it to me for the convenience. From what I've seen, I'm not alone in that respect: all of the people in my group have expressed similar issues, and it's been a common complaint in threads on ENWorld as well.

I like PDFs, and I like supporting PDF companies, but the cost-benefit from buying them has to be there in order for me to spend over what I'd consider a reasonable amount. Again, I think the lack of sales for WotC's 4E PDFs largely came from the fact that they didn't have the perceived value for the cost. Maybe it's just some weird American thing or something

--Steve

 

[Wicht]

You keep saying that WotC's pdf's are so expensive. From what I can see, their pdf's were at 70% of retail price, just like Paizo's and just like Goodman Games': Green Ronin does appear to be slightly cheaper though. Am I missing something?

Actually as Paizo subscriber, I get the physical books at a discount and the PDF for free. Free is a pretty good deal in my book.

 

[Intense_Interest]

Enerla, if you're response is a mere collection of personal attacks and Straw Men in the vein of Gun Rights = Piracy (wherein one is a defined crime and the other is a right), we really don't have much to say to each-other.

 

[Storm Raven]

But I doubt that in USA if you would form a party for people who only want to represent people who owns a gun, and everything that party does would involve questions around owning a gun, you would find them empty and void of values and void of values. Probably they wouldn't hit 1% without any focus on any real values.

I take it you are not familiar with the NRA.

 

[Mistwell]

Its simple. For years WOTC has been portraying themselves as being such a HUGE company

Show me where they said that.

that they had a customer base 6 million strong, they even say as much in the court documents posted. However, when you do the numbers, hundreds fo thousand core books sold come no where close to supporting a market 6 million strong

They say there are up to 6 million players, and they have sold hundreds of thousands of books, in the same paragraph. HOW have you managed to honestly try and portray that as them lying, given they say both in the same paragraph of the same document, just to make absolutely sure that you can't mistake what they are saying?

so WOTC has been lying about how big an industry they are.

No, so far you have shown that they claim X players, and Y sales, and they do so simultaneously. That makes them honest, not a liar. Show me (not with your opinion, but with hard facts of quotes) where they say what you claim they say, and the proof they are lying about it.

Plus they claim that 4E is out selling 3E

Show me where they say this.

well according to Dancey and several newspaper type articles I have seen linked to, the 3E PH sold over one million copies in the first year alone. Ryan even says the 3E PH sold 300,000 copies in the first 30 days. So yet another lie WOTC has been caught in, either now, or back in the 3E days, because it was their news releases cited in the articles I read today.

How are they lying? When has WOTC said 4e overall outsold 3e? And where is the article showing over one million copies of the 3e PHB sold in the first year? Back up your claim, if you are going to call people liars.

So yes, I am calling WOTC a lying company. Why? Because they are.

Not until you uphold your burden of proving that is the case.

Plus look at the pirating thing. They claim it was this huge thing that was devastating their bottom line

Show me where they say it was "devastating their bottom line".

, yet in the court cases I read they site 1,000 downloads of one book. 1,000. That is a pittance compared to how many copies of the print PH2 they sold, yet they talk/claim that it was huge numbers that were devastating to their sales.

Show me where they say they claim it was only pirated 1000 times, as opposed to that particular small sample of time and location was 1000. Then show me this "devastating" claim you keep making.

1,000 is not devastating. Even assume 1,000 as an average for each of the 8 pirates, 8,000 is not a huge number.

It is if the sample size was for a short period of time (which I believe it was).

I know physical stores that wish they had only 10% theft to deal with, and WOTC cannot prove that those 1,000 DL's resulted in lost sales.

That's what court is for, to prove. The complaint isn't the proof.

To do so they have to find all those people who did the illegal DL's and find out if the bought print copies or not. I doubt they can do that, let alone are willing to do it.

They will use generally accepted means in the industry to demonstrate to a reasonable person the reasonable likelyhood of an estimate of lost sales. Like all types of cases like that one.

So I think they shut down PDF sales as a cheap and easy and provable way to show how the pirating caused them financial damage, because their stated reasons are complete baloney.

So yes, I don't consider WOTC to have any integrity what so ever.

And I think you posted a lot of claims that do not hold up under scrutiny, and that you exaggerated a lot. Prove me wrong. Post the links to the proof that backs up your claims. If you are going to call people liars, it's only right that you back up the allegation.

 

[Maggan]

So I was the only one who, when reading it, though that it was obvious that they were referring to all D&D players, no matter the edition?

Whenever WotC has referred to players of D&D before, in the millions, I've always taken that as meaning "of all editions of the game". Mostly based on comments from people working at WotC and people who have worked at WotC.

I didn't expect WotC to be selling millions of Player's Handbooks in the first year of a new edition, that's for sure.

/M

 

[Treebore]

Mistwell, if you want to stick up for WOTC, thats fine. I found and read everything (Well enough to know the information is NOT in the same paragraph) I claimed to find, either from Googling or reading Ryan Danceys blog, or reading the court documents several times. If you want to see things differently, thats fine. I think WOTC have been liars, and that I can pull up more than enough evidence to back it up.

WOTC is not as huge as they have lead people to believe, they do not have a market of 6 million people, they only have a proven market of "hundreds of thousands" to claim, or even suggest, that they have a market of 6 million is false, plain and simple. If their claims of outselling 3E are true, either they are lying now, or WOTC and Ryan lied about how well 3E sold back in 2001.

As to where has WOTC claimed 4E is doing better than 3E? Practically every interview.

 

[The Little Raven]

I think WOTC have been liars, and that I can pull up more than enough evidence to back it up.

Pretty much everything you claim as objective evidence is solely your interpretation.

As to where has WOTC claimed 4E is doing better than 3E? Practically every interview.

Then you shouldn't have any trouble actually citing a source, which is what you seem to be avoiding.

 

[BryonD]

Then you shouldn't have any trouble actually citing a source, which is what you seem to be avoiding.

mearls: Thank You, Thank You, Thank You!

http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...-previous-edition-good-bad-2.html#post4278762

 

[Grazzt]

mearls: Thank You, Thank You, Thank You!

http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...-previous-edition-good-bad-2.html#post4278762

Interesting. I'd seen the first link, but not the second one.