"HF" vs. "S&S" gaming: the underlying reason of conflict and change in D&D

[Mallus]

I'm not sure, however it's the brutalization of English you imply.

It's probably not. I think I have a specific allergy to his prose. As I was reading the Lensman cycle I kept thinking "Why can't a different writer have your ideas?!".

To give you some context, I really dig Samuel R. Delany, and my favorite Golden Age SF author is Cordwainer Smith.

 

[Zulgyan]

If D&D is a unique gerne, what are it's caracteristics, what defines it?

 

[Raven Crowking]

Being identified as belonging to a particular genre or group of genres doesn't follow conservation laws. It is quite possible for a work to belong to multiple genres.


RC

 

[Zulgyan]

Ok, to which?

 

[Remathilis]

If D&D is a unique genre, what are it's characteristics, what defines it?

Primarily, its a mash-up of a bunch of different elements of fantasy, myth, and hints of sci-fi and horror all rolled up into a "kitchen sink" of ideas, which the DM can use as many or as little of as he wants. Its the genre were feudal samurai, Celtic druids, Arthurian paladins, knights-templar, Tolkien hobbits, and thewy barbarians all join together in taverns to fight Hammer-horror vampires, Chuthulu-inspired aberrations, Greek medusae and whatever Chinese toy Gary bought in a Five-n-Dime.

Specifically though, if you want some of the genre tropes...

* Arcane/Divine Magic split. Arcanists use magic to attack, Priests use magic to heal.
* Magic is not good or evil; it exists. Heroes and villains can use it alike.
* Arcanists are weak, frail, and bookish.
* Rest to recover magic, or some other limit on magic use per day.
* There a hundreds of sentient "near human" races, each with one or more traits exaggerated to create a "niche" for the race. (Elves are graceful and wise, hobbits small and plucky, orcs brutish and strong, etc).
* The Four-man party: Warrior, thief, arcanist, priest.
* Dungeons as underground fun-house of monsters, traps, mysteries, and mazes, often with more emphasis on player-challenge than on any given purpose.
* Color-coded elemental-based dragons
* Magic items Galore, to the point of characters being overladen with them

I'm sure there are more.

 

[Mallus]

Ok, to which?

Well, swords and sorcery and high fantasy, for starters. Then there's that persistent hint of both science fiction, particularly Planetary Romance, horror, and Westerns. Also non-literary genres, such as small-unit tactical wargame and puzzle/brain teaser games.

 

[Zulgyan]

Primarily, its a mash-up of a bunch of different elements of fantasy, myth, and hints of sci-fi and horror all rolled up into a "kitchen sink" of ideas, which the DM can use as many or as little of as he wants. Its the genre were feudal samurai, Celtic druids, Arthurian paladins, knights-templar, Tolkien hobbits, and thewy barbarians all join together in taverns to fight Hammer-horror vampires, Chuthulu-inspired aberrations, Greek medusae and whatever Chinese toy Gary bought in a Five-n-Dime.

Specifically though, if you want some of the genre tropes...

* Arcane/Divine Magic split. Arcanists use magic to attack, Priests use magic to heal.
* Magic is not good or evil; it exists. Heroes and villains can use it alike.
* Arcanists are weak, frail, and bookish.
* Rest to recover magic, or some other limit on magic use per day.
* There a hundreds of sentient "near human" races, each with one or more traits exaggerated to create a "niche" for the race. (Elves are graceful and wise, hobbits small and plucky, orcs brutish and strong, etc).
* The Four-man party: Warrior, thief, arcanist, priest.
* Dungeons as underground fun-house of monsters, traps, mysteries, and mazes, often with more emphasis on player-challenge than on any given purpose.
* Color-coded elemental-based dragons
* Magic items Galore, to the point of characters being overladen with them

I'm sure there are more.

While all this trully makes a unique WORLD, I don't see it as making up a new genre.

Narnia and Middle-earth are two unique worlds, that belong to the HF genre.
Hyboria and Newton are two unique worlds, that belong to the S&S genre.

 

[Zulgyan]

Well, swords and sorcery and high fantasy, for starters. Then there's that persistent hint of both science fiction, particularly Planetary Romance, horror, and Westerns. Also non-literary genres, such as small-unit tactical wargame and puzzle/brain teaser games.

We agree D&D has recieved all those influences.

My point is that during it's history, the S&S influence got reduced, and the HF one increased.

And that also brought rules changes

 

[Desdichado]

Rem; that's all the specifics of the "D&D mileu". Setting stuff. That's not sufficient to call it a new genre.

Then again, the fact that D&D has never mapped all that well to highly differentiated and somewhat esoteric subgenre definitions makes categorization of it difficult anyway.

It's probably best to just call D&D a fantasy game and not even try to map it to High Fantasy, Sword & Sorcery, Dark Fantasy, Epic Fantasy (which, as defined, pretty much overlaps with High Fantasy too much to deserve it's own label anyway, IMO), Romantic Fantasy or any other subgenre of fantasy, and leave it at that.

I guess you can definitively say that D&D isn't meant to emulate urban fantasy, though. For whatever that's worth. Anita Blake and Harry Dresden ain't D&D characters.

 

[Doug McCrae]

D&D fantasy:

Large number of protagonists
Clerics - holy men in plate armor who cast healing spells
Vancian magic
Large zoo dungeons
Tremendous variety of monsters
Tremendous number of magic items
Mixing of numerous other genres and time periods. As Remathilis says, it's a genre where Conan, Turjan, Bilbo, Sir Galahad and Getafix team up to fight Count Dracula, a Norse fire giant and something from an AE Van Vogt story.