Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder (PFRPG) bloat (was Forked Thread: What exactly is OGL bloat?)

[roguerouge]

Since bloat is a sign of a vibrant free marketplace where product ideas are tested on their worth, we should definitely hope for such booms and corrections in the PRPG market. We should also hope for a bloat, as such boom periods employ the RPG freelance writers which the hobby depends on. The passive aggressive GSL made it a lot harder for freelancers to get the kind of consistent work necessary to practice their craft.

 

[Jan van Leyden]

I'd doubt it. I'm sure there will be some 3pp's that make stuff that will use the Pathfinder rules, but I'm betting mostly adventures/adventure paths and campaign setting adaptations. I think the "Bloat" during 3E was more about splatbooks and such. Personally, I'm not expecting a lot of splatbooks by 3pp's for Pathfinder.

Why would it be interesting to publish adventures and APs? This is exactly the market where Paizo deliveres in spades and then some. I fully expect splat books to re-emerge, especially as interested parties have had the alpha and beta rules for a long time and can publish such books in the not too distant future.

 

[Eridanis]

Flashback to autumn 2000. The core 3E books are coming out, 3pp's are already rolling out support product and the quality is starting to improve. At that time, I thought that the main effect of the SRD would be that publishers (WotC included) would take the best ideas from all the independent publishers, and there would be a lot of cross-pollenation.

THat didn't happen, of course. IN the exuberance of the market, everyone kind of did their own thing. A few publishers used Tome of Horrors monsters, and WotC openly published two Creature Catalog monsters in the Monster Manual 2, as well as surreptitiously publishing two Book of Eldritch Might spells in Complete Arcane. As far as I know, that was about it.

Now, here we are again, and I think PRPG might hew closer to that old thought than 3E did. A lot of design ground has alrady been covered, for good or for bad. As mentioned above, there are large swathes of design covered in non-SRD products by WotC, but other takes published by d20 companies that might bear a second look. Paizo won't be doing the book-of-the-month that WotC was doing, so there will be room for things that other publishers do to be unofficially (or officially?) adopted by Paizo as part of thier system. We'll see how it goes, but I think publishers and consumers have already been down the "glut" road once, and won't be prone to make the exact same mistakes again.

 

[ggroy]

Flashback to autumn 2000. The core 3E books are coming out, 3pp's are already rolling out support product and the quality is starting to improve. At that time, I thought that the main effect of the SRD would be that publishers (WotC included) would take the best ideas from all the independent publishers, and there would be a lot of cross-pollenation.

THat didn't happen, of course. IN the exuberance of the market, everyone kind of did their own thing. A few publishers used Tome of Horrors monsters, and WotC openly published two Creature Catalog monsters in the Monster Manual 2, as well as surreptitiously publishing two Book of Eldritch Might spells in Complete Arcane. As far as I know, that was about it.

If Paizo plays its cards well and to the benefit of the 3pp community, it may be able to possibly fulfill Ryan Dancey's original vision for "open gaming" in the spirit of the original 3E SRD and OGL.

Open gaming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Though all this would be moot if Paizo ends up being acquired by a huge corporate conglomerate, such as a company like Hasbro. (I suppose the owners of any small or medium sized company would sell, given the right price).

 

[ggroy]

Since bloat is a sign of a vibrant free marketplace where product ideas are tested on their worth, we should definitely hope for such booms and corrections in the PRPG market. We should also hope for a bloat, as such boom periods employ the RPG freelance writers which the hobby depends on. The passive aggressive GSL made it a lot harder for freelancers to get the kind of consistent work necessary to practice their craft.

The downside of booms and busts, is dealing with the fallout of excess physical inventory which doesn't sell and ends up sitting on the shelves and/or in bargain bins collecting dust for long periods of time. Distributors and retailers are less likely to be "fooled" the next time around, and will be more skeptical in ordering newer stuff.

Though if another 3pp boom and bust happens and is largely confined to the PDF market, things may possibly end up differently this time around. If drivethruRPG wants to get rid of "excess" PDF inventory, all they have to do is hit the delete key.

 

[kenmarable]

I certainly hope there's a "glut".

As I mentioned in the original thread, as long as it's produced and distributed properly (most likely with a heavy slant towards PDF and POD), then I am all for another "glut" of products.

The range of choices available during the height of the 3.x/d20 era was awesome - not to mention the opportunities for freelancer writers, artists, and cartographers!

So I say bring on the glut!! I'm hoping to be a part of it myself!

 

[El Mahdi]

Why would it be interesting to publish adventures and APs? This is exactly the market where Paizo deliveres in spades and then some. I fully expect splat books to re-emerge, especially as interested parties have had the alpha and beta rules for a long time and can publish such books in the not too distant future.

Adventures and adventure paths in other publishers campaign settings (not the Pathfinder/Golarion setting) using Pathfinder rules. In other words, other publishers using the revised 3.5E rules (Pathfinder, developed by Paizo) for their own campaign settings and adventures/adventure paths.

I also think (like you) that Paizo makes some of the best adventures and adventure paths in the market. But Paizo probably isn't going to make adventures for other publishers campaign settings. IMO, Pathfinder Rules (and the Trailblazer add-on rules) allow 3.5E to reach it's full potential. And since, IMO, 3.5E was already the best rules system out there, this just makes it even better. I really don't think it's a huge leap of reasoning to want to see other publishers use the Pathfinder/Trailblazer rules sets for use in their own campaign settings and adventures. I'm eagerly hoping other publishers do just that.

As far as splatbooks, peoples definitions vary as to what constitutes a splatbook and what doesn't. For me, that's "complete" books that simply attempt to make money by expanding on already existing material by adding extemporaneous material. For others, it's any supplement other than the original core books (which by that definition would make Pathfinder a splatbook). I tend to think that most people feel books they like, that they've added to their game, become "core" for them - and everything else are splatbooks. Your (everyone's) mileage maywill vary.

I just don't expect a lot of "complete" books based around the Pathfinder rules. Honestly, there are so many already out there for 3E/3.5E, that could very easily be updated by players and DM's for use with Pathfinder, that I can't imagine 3pp's would really be doing a whole lot of conversions. Also, with the economy the way it is, I doubt we'll see a glut or bloat for anything, including 4E, for quite some time. It's just the time we live in right now. Everybody is trying to think smaller and more efficient. Of course, I may be wrong about all of this (it has been known to happen), but as with anything, time will tell.

 

[kenmarable]

The downside of booms and busts, is dealing with the fallout of excess physical inventory which doesn't sell and ends up sitting on the shelves and/or in bargain bins collecting dust for long periods of time. Distributors and retailers are less likely to be "fooled" the next time around, and will be more skeptical in ordering newer stuff.

Though if another 3pp boom and bust happens and is largely confined to the PDF market, things may possibly end up differently this time around. If drivethruRPG wants to get rid of "excess" PDF inventory, all they have to do is hit the delete key.

I think between the distributors being far more shy about new companies, and the Pathfinder market being smaller than early D&D 3.0, I don't see the glut of physical books taking up shelf space as being an issue at all this time around.

Especially with print on demand being a viable option (wasn't even heard of in 2001 rpg market), a new company would be foolish to jump straight to traditional print runs and distribution unless they had a "guaranteed" money maker like a great licensed property or something. (Even those have proven to be hit and miss over the years.)

 

[kenmarable]

For me, that's "complete" books that simply attempt to make money by expanding on already existing material by adding extemporaneous material.

Considering the origin of the term with "splat" referring to the asterisk wildcard in programming, I think it's safe to assume yours should be the general meaning (and has been the most commonly accepted one from what I've seen). Basically a series of expansion books chugging through a set of classes, races, whatever. "Races of *", "Complete *", etc.

But I need to stop responding to this thread and gat back to pretending I'm working.

 

[El Mahdi]

Considering the origin of the term with "splat" referring to the asterisk wildcard in programming, I think it's safe to assume yours should be the general meaning (and has been the most commonly accepted one from what I've seen). Basically a series of expansion books chugging through a set of classes, races, whatever. "Races of *", "Complete *", etc.

But I need to stop responding to this thread and gat back to pretending I'm working.

Yeah, I think my definition is the same as yours, but you know, Eye of the Beholder and all of that. If I was brutally honest though, I'm probably closer to the "anything I like is core, everything else is splat" definition.

Anyways, get back to pretending to work man.



(Besides, my wife is giving me that look that says "get off the computer and get some work done" also. Oh Well.)