LEB Discussion Thread '09

[stonegod]

As for WOTC's stance on reproduction of material I'm not really sure, as I've never dealt or read anything about their policies on that. I'd be inclined to believe however that they're against reproduction of pay to get material just like theyve recently cracked down on digital copies of their books being distributed on websites like scribd (which btw sucked because I own every 4E book WOTC has currently published, and loved being able to have digital copies for ease of transport).

There is no official or otherwise fan policy. But they have asked folks that have put up the entire text of powers (1[W] and all) to take it down while not bothering folks that post character sheets or powers with all the variables calculated as far as I know.

If the MM race write-ups are going to be included from the get-go, I think it would be a good idea make a note to the effect of, "these races are subject to change when new, specifically player-oriented write-ups are done by WotC, whether in Dragon or a hardcover book."

Good idea. The MM has the hobgoblins and goblins, which are pretty important to Eberron.

As far as monstrous races go, would the specific issue of Dragon (if appropriate) need to be proposed and voted on, or (since by at least some of the arguments here) would they simply be accepted as 'official' WOTC material once they are published and available? For instance- gnolls (fairly common in Droaam and elsewhere) have a Dragon write-up (in 367). If I want to play a gnoll, would I need to propose to have that issue (or specific article) accepted? If I didn't want to propose, or if the proposal was voted down, would I still be able to use an MM gnoll?

In theory, yes they need to be proposed. Once we get some actual judges online, we should be able to get through that quickly. Until then, the MM gnoll will be available (or just create a Dragon gnoll and remain unofficial until its approval—it'll be unlikely that you'd get any XP before its approved).

 

[elecgraystone]

They're not "official" (or more semantically appropriate, sanctioned) for RPGA play (whereas Dragon material is sanctioned), for example, and its made clear that they are not the "official" (player-intended) PC write up in the MM/MM2.

Well this is a bit disingenuous. I'm not a member of RPGA and as far as I know the living 4th here isn't an RPGA sanctioned game. As such, I don't see how this has the least bit of relevance for a non-RPGA game such as this. What's official in an RPGA game and what's official in a normal game have always been 2 different things. In a normal game if you say you can play a minotaur, both the MM version and the dragon version are 100% official.

In my opinion, warning players of monstrous characters that they will have to change their race mechanics if/when the race is done in more detail in Dragon/PHBX/a setting book/whatever is something that should be done.

I'm fine with this but I can imagine some wouldn't be, especially people transferring their characters from the 3.5e to the 4e game. Since I did play the 3.5 version, I don't know how many people played 'monstrous' races before.

At the very least this has to be VERY clear in the creation thread.

get a 1 month subscription when that Dragon issue comes out.

As pointed out, not an option for everyone.

I had the same problem with wizards.

I had them change my password too. Worked once then wouldn't let me in again. There's NO way I'm paying for that kind of service!

 

[ukingsken]

As far as monstrous races go, would the specific issue of Dragon (if appropriate) need to be proposed and voted on, or (since by at least some of the arguments here) would they simply be accepted as 'official' WOTC material once they are published and available? For instance- gnolls (fairly common in Droaam and elsewhere) have a Dragon write-up (in 367). If I want to play a gnoll, would I need to propose to have that issue (or specific article) accepted? If I didn't want to propose, or if the proposal was voted down, would I still be able to use an MM gnoll?

My first instinct is that, as mentioned before we'd have to propose them, whether as an individual article (From Dragon) or as part of a proposal for a new hardcover like PHB3.

That being said, I'd say it would be worth our time to at least take care of the race articles (Particularly Shadar-Kai, Minotaurs, and Gnolls although I feel like I'm missing one or two) before we leave the sources issue. Because if we're going to vote down the Dragon versions (or any version published after the MM) how could you then allow the MM version, which so far has always been less balanced/playtested then the updated versions in Dragon or new hardcovers.

 

[stonegod]

Well this is a bit disingenuous. I'm not a member of RPGA and as far as I know the living 4th here isn't an RPGA sanctioned game. As such, I don't see how this has the least bit of relevance for a non-RPGA game such as this. What's official in an RPGA game and what's official in a normal game have always been 2 different things. In a normal game if you say you can play a minotaur, both the MM version and the dragon version are 100% official.

I am not being disingenuous; what I'm trying to do is point out that as far as games organized by Wizards are concerned, MM races are not valid PC races whereas Dragon PC write-ups are. Which is why I wrote "sanctioned" instead of "official". It goes to Wizard's intent for the MM-vs-non-MM write-ups.

 

[elecgraystone]

We'll have to disagree with this Stonegod. There has ALWAYS been thing not allowed into an RPGA that were allowed and quite official in normal play. As I recall evil PC aren't allowed and they are hardly unofficial. We have NO idea why they've said no to MM races. I'm more inclined to think that they want to encourage people to buy DDI accounts than it is any other intent like not liking the MM races or thinking that they aren't 'valid'.

Since every dragon race except the minotaur has only had additional things added to it, it doesn't seem like they dislike the MM races. More like 'Want to play your RPGA Shadar-Kai? Buy DDI'!

 

[stonegod]

Since every dragon race except the minotaur has only had additional things added to it, it doesn't seem like they dislike the MM races. More like 'Want to play your RPGA Shadar-Kai? Buy DDI'!

Oh, they want your money, alright.

 

[elecgraystone]

Oh, they want your money, alright.

LOL That we can agree on!
I really do think that was the reason for the exclusion of MM raced from the RPGA.

That said, things should work out reasonably well if we make a clear and in your face warning about the MM races in the creation thread. It wouldn't hurt to put a note by the minotaur entry to PM a judge if you only have the MM and want to play a minotaur character so we can avoid the slightest hint of potential legal trouble. It'd be a shame to not be able to play one when you have the majority of the race info just because you don't have dragon access.

 

[ukingsken]

LOL That we can agree on!
I really do think that was the reason for the exclusion of MM raced from the RPGA.

That said, things should work out reasonably well if we make a clear and in your face warning about the MM races in the creation thread. It wouldn't hurt to put a note by the minotaur entry to PM a judge if you only have the MM and want to play a minotaur character so we can avoid the slightest hint of potential legal trouble. It'd be a shame to not be able to play one when you have the majority of the race info just because you don't have dragon access.

Well they certainly do want our money, but I have to say I really don't think I've ever gotten more out of money spent on a D&D product then I do out of my DDI subscription, especially once they get the character viewer and digital gametable on the go (Prays that happens some time this year).

I really feel like the value is good enough that you shouldn't give up Elec. If you want the content my recommendation is try creating an entirely new account and see if the password issue doesn't reoccur, maybe I wasn't clear before but that's what I ended up doing to solve the problem... So I guess I didn't so much solve it as avoid it hahaha, but regardless I wouldn't give up on the joyous amounts of content provided by DDI.

And I think thats a perfectly viable solution. Make it clear that once another source re-does the race that players would be required to convert the race, and if its just as simple as replacing one feature contact a judge to find out what changes. That doesn't seem like it would anger up the WOTC people too much, especially considering the amount of money most of us here at this community sink into them over the years

 

[stonegod]

I'll be updating the Wiki later this eve or tomorrow. Going to the movies... on the couch.

BTW: There's still one message out there, but I'll announce three of our new judges now:
- EvolutionKB
- ukingsken
- TwoHeadsBarking

I'll be staying on as judge for now; guess I'm not as burned out as I thought. However, I'll be on the look out for some more judges as time progresses (five is a bare min in my mind, though technically the charter only states three). Regardless of when/whether I step down, I'll still be moderating—so no getting rid of me yet!

Congrats to our new judges!

 

[ukingsken]

*Throws head back and cackles madly* I HAVE THE POOOOWWWWWEEERRR!!!

*eyes dart back and forth* I uhhhh mean uhh, thanks I hope to serve ably and responsibly during my term as judge.... yeah that's it!