Character ability v. player volition: INT, WIS, CHA

That still doesn't answer the more important question: why, as DM, should you make a big deal out it?

It is my opinion that a DM's job is to ensure that ALL players at the table are having fun. Players entrust a certain level of authority to the DM. As a result, it often becomes the DM's job to reign in some players because OTHER players are not fully enjoying themselves. This has been the tendency of every gaming group I have been a part of.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I meant to common on your example from Boot Hill. Moving toward more specific, task-related stats that lack broader and more problematic connotations is a great solution to this age-old gaming brouhaha.
Well, I think that in essence that's what you and I and a few others have already done: INT is not INTELLIGENCE! but rather capacity for learning spells and the number of languages your character can speak, or that number that determines what benefit you get to certain skills and the number of skill points your character gets each level, depending on the edition or system we're considering.

I find ability scores make a lot more sense to me when I think of them as not who my character is but rather how well he does what he does.
 

That still doesn't answer the more important question: why, as DM, should you make a big deal out it? Let the mechanical penalties fall where they may and leave the actual play and characterization to the player.

Because, as I said, in the first place, it's very easy to evade most mechanical penalties. A decent power gamer is going to select disadvantages that provide no mechanical penalty that they care about at all. Besides which, imposing mechanical penalties that effect player choice regularly gets to be very irritating for both the DM and the player. If the player takes the initiative to act out his disadvantage (this is more applicable to systems other than D&D, say GURPS) there is little need to go to the blunt instrument of mechanical enforcement.

And in the second case, as I previously indicated, it is because this sort of behavior tends to irritate other players as well. Often times they see it - rightly IMO - as an attempt to hog the greater share of the spotlight and glory for themselves, while doing nothing to entertain the other players. It's just not good teamwork to say, "My player is good at everything.", which is at the core of the game what the rules exist to prevent.

As to why I care in the third place, the answer is very simple - if the PC's don't roleplay well, the game becomes rather unentertaining. A gamer who dumps stats all his mental and social abilities expecting to rely on his ability, knowledge, and cunning as a player to be cunning, charming, persuasive is in my experience not only not at all interested in roleplaying but very likely to begin to argue in a metagame fashion about how my ruling that the player's charming, persuasive, reasonable statements ought not to have provoked a negative reaction from the NPC 'merely' because a dice throw indicated a fumbled diplomacy check from his CHR 4 oaf. I care because the game just is more fun to play when the player takes the responcibility for policing themselves rather than trying to see how far they can push, manipulate, or bend the system (and hense me).

A 6 INT PC will make a terrible wizard.

So what? No one likely to pull this kind of stunt will dump stat INT when playing a wizard.

So what if he or she frequently comes up with smart plans? Perhaps the character is possessed of a certain low, dumb cunning --why they must be, they keep coming up with crackerjack plans!

Again, someone who is playing a character that communicates 'low, dumb cunning' is probably entertaining, and probably would have never dump stated in the first place and instead is playing the 11 INT as meaning 'not that intellectual but has a low dumb cunning'. Someone who takes 6 INT as a dump stat and then plays the character as a mastermind probably isn't ever in character and hense never entertains and probably has this whole adversarial PC vs. the DM thing going.

As DM I get better results helping realize and rationalize my player's characters than constantly trying to evaluate if they're playing them correctly.

Assuming that the player's have characters in the first place. It's the blatant lack of characterization and of any thought actually given to character (as opposed to 'system mastery') that is the heart of my problem with this.
 
Last edited:

Call me crazy, but I just don't see the draw behind dividing the game between pure freeform RP where you can do virtually anything you desire, not being held up to your stats at all, and a very sudden if not violent shift to a combat situation where suddenly all the rules of the entire universe changes.

If you decide to take a low mental score - let's say, an intelligence of 5 - you have stated "I want my character to have a low mental score." And that's not a bad thing. but when you then say "I don't want to act like I have a bad mental score despite giving myself the statistical bonuses of of having one," what you're basically saying is "I want to cheat. I want to maximize my character at all costs for combat, but I don't want to have to deal with any consequences."

If you're going to act like your character has 20's in all stats and then only adhere to stats for purely mechanical reasons while in combat, you're not playing a character. You're writing fanfiction about yourself while playing solitaire on the side.

Now, before everyone quotes that last bit and gets upset, please note that the emphasis is on that first paragraph. I think that's where the divide is. Some of us see the game as being one whole thing. Others of us, apparently, see "fighting" and "not fighting" as being two completely different things that shouldn't intermingle.
 

So what's more interesting, a character defined in creation, or a character developed in play?

Is the character you start the game with already defined, or is it a launching point to find out who he is?

Who's the better roleplayer, the one that sticks to their predefined vision, or the one that grows naturally into a personality overtime?



I reckon the answer lies somewhere in the middle, but I think those questions are kind of at the crux of the matter.

I can't imagine I'm the only person who discovered the character they were playing wasn't at all like the one they conceived. Was I a bad role player because I didn't play the character I initially laid out, or a good one because I found the character's voice?

Personally I think it's at that point where stats and player action meet that define a character. A lazy intellectual (smart character, dumb player) or the slow one that tries hard (dumb character, but smart player occasionally foiled by mechanics) are good examples.

Anywhere, there's some muddled thoughts for you.
 

Because, as I said, in the first place, it's very easy to evade most mechanical penalties. A decent power gamer is going to select disadvantages that provide no mechanical penalty that they care about at all. Besides which, imposing mechanical penalties that effect player choice regularly gets to be very irritating for both the DM and the player. If the player takes the initiative to act out his disadvantage (this is more applicable to systems other than D&D, say GURPS) there is little need to go to the blunt instrument of mechanical enforcement.

I don't think RP disadvantages (personal fears, acting dumb, et cetera) should exist in a mechanical form at all. Playing up a personality quirk is its own reward, and if you don't enjoy it, the rules should not push you to do it by dangling the carrot of greater mechanical effectiveness. Balance mechanics against other mechanics, not against RP.

A better approach would be to work out a system that helps players develop and realize a vision for a character's personality, without trying to tie it into the world-interaction mechanics. This could be as simple as making a list of personality traits - some good, some bad - and saying, "Choose 3 or more of the following and write them on the back of your character sheet, with a one-sentence description of this facet of your character's personality."

If somebody wants to pick all "helpful" traits - "works efficiently," "thinks logically," "puts practical necessity first," say - then so be it. I think you'd find, though, that people often took flaws, and had a lot of fun playing up those flaws, because they were chosen freely instead of imposed as a cost of buying the abilities the player wanted.

And if the flaws eventually go away, for whatever reason - the character learns to use his brain, gets over his fears, et cetera - that's okay too. You can encourage good roleplaying, but you can't enforce it. And characters should grow and change over time.

I can't imagine I'm the only person who discovered the character they were playing wasn't at all like the one they conceived.

Exactly what I was trying to get at above.
 
Last edited:

I n my ideal game, the player puts himself in the mindset of the character and acts as him to the best of their ability. Physical stats and dice are used to represent their interaction with the world. I just don't like when someone wants to play a wise character but to do so they'll have to give up a bunch of combat effectiveness for a few skill bumps and the right to roleplay as wise.
 

So what's more interesting, a character defined in creation, or a character developed in play?

Is the character you start the game with already defined, or is it a launching point to find out who he is?
Good questions.

I definitely tend to favor characters developed in play and I prefer to start with a fairly sketchy background.
Oni said:
Personally I think it's at that point where stats and player action meet that define a character.
Agreed.

When, where, and how much those stats influence or affect player action seems to be at the heart of the question at hand.
 


A wizard can dump stat str, and this is fine. He can avoid the drawback in play and this is fine.

A melee fighter in heavy armor can dump stat dex fine and avoid most of the drawbacks. And this is fine.

If a fighter or wizard dump stats charisma though and avoids most of the drawbacks, this is cheating?
 

Remove ads

Top