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Why do DM's like Dark, gritty worlds and players the opposite?

Dannager

First Post
(Why strange? A: the default PoL setting should not be a get-rich-quick kinda place
On the contrary, that's exactly what the profession of adventuring is billed as!

The default PoL setting is based on the idea that huge, magnificent empires used to exist, but for whatever reason collapsed into history and legend. Now mere points of light exist to hold the darkness at bay, but that darkness contains the bones of those ancient empires, and among those bones are the riches of kings, just waiting to be reclaimed from that same darkness.
 

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Ariosto

First Post
Yeah, "points of light" sounds like the old D&D premise, although it was at first more implicit than explicit. Greyhawk fits, I think, and I seem to recall the published Forgotten Realms having been more like that initially.

Of course, with the huge influx of unearthed gold, the dungeon explorers are not the only ones getting rich! In some campaigns, it may seem that they end up with just a fraction of their loot.

Eventually, the hoards in a particular area of ruins ought to run out. By then, civilization is likely to have moved in, and monsters mostly moved on.

On the other hand, a proper underworld, a la that beneath Greyhawk Castle, or the Ruins of Undermountain, is not something to clean out. It makes sense that a great city should flourish near it.

Piles of treasure look good, and present challenges as well. Dig those thousands of really heavy coins old-style! There's glamor in that, and wish-fulfillment fantasy in spending the riches.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
It's particularly strange the 4e not only continues this trend but actually ramps up the expected wealth considerably. (Why strange? A: the default PoL setting should not be a get-rich-quick kinda place and B: The system keys so many aspect of magic items off of character level it's nigh bizzare they didn't toss the bonus into that pool and state that magic items run off personal mojo.)

By keeping the personal mojo somewhat distinct we can still get cake and eat it too... see as follows

With the "Alternate Rewards" system of Boons and Grand Master Training individual heros could have there personal mojo be the source of the their +1 to +6 and bonus. Lancelot can have boons like Grand Master Swordsman/Duelist and Strength of 10 men ... and in the same story King Arthur can have his relic of kingship. Gawaine had Might of the Sun (strongest at noon .. weakest at midnight).

I think the alternate rewards technique is newish and needs the kinks worked out of it, but seems a natural enabler for controlling the style of your world. Beowulf wasn't dependent on magic items but he sure had dragon hoard
And as you point out might even make PoL feel more natural.

An Object becoming spontaneously enchanted (gaining a boon) as part of the action can be a treasure parcel... feels very cool and if you want less magic items simply being constructed and found.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ex/20090908
 
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Hobo, YOU wrote, "Because the system and paradigm was not to my taste at all. The arbitrariness, the strange limitations, the lack of focus on things that made the game fun, and the focus on things that made it boring and bizarre; D&D was not the game for me."
Yes, I know. So? What point are you trying to make here?

Because it seems to me that you're saying that because I don't like dungeoncrawling and careful, extremely detailed search checks that I shouldn't even be playing D&D... as if that's what D&D means or something.
 

Raven Crowking

First Post
... as if that's what D&D means or something.

Your quote seems to imply that that is what D&D meant. If not, why "Because the system and paradigm was not to my taste at all....D&D was not the game for me" if the system and the paradigm of D&D did not mean "The arbitrariness, the strange limitations, the lack of focus on things that made the game fun, and the focus on things that made it boring and bizarre"?


RC
 

cmbarona

First Post
Well... While Snoweel is on hiatus, I should quickly attempt to clarify the analytical point he was trying to make.

Correlations do not imply causation.

BUT, in the world of statistical analysis, it is assumed that a strong enough correlation still has SOME underlying cause.

Let's assume for a moment that there is a correlation between two variables:

Variable A: Bad DMing
Variable B: the darkness/grimness/grittiness of a world

Let's further assume that this correlation is positive (when one variable increases, the other variable increases).

If this is true, it is assumed that one of three possibilities exist:

1) Variable A causes Variable B
2) Variable B causes Variable A
3) Some third, unknown variable is the cause of the correlation between A and B

That's all that was meant when he said there has to be some underlying cause.

However, I believe he made a separate point assuming that option 2 is in some way true. Someone please correct me if I misinterpreted his post, or if I am wrong in my recollection. But this new argument (option 2 is correct) is distinct from the point he was making about statistical analysis (one of the three options must be correct).

All that being said, first, I disagree with his correlation, and second, he really should know better than to postulate conclusions on a correlation that has no evidence for its existence. Perhaps he was just hypothesizing, but hypotheses usually come before a study, and can only be (usefully) discussed after those results are in. They are not valid points of argumentation in and of themselves.

P.S.: I'll take one step farther and point out that correlations still have some degree of predictive value. One can look at a correlation and say that, if one variable increases, chances are, the other variable will increase. However, attempting to explain that increase without further study is usually unhelpful.
 

Your quote seems to imply that that is what D&D meant. If not, why "Because the system and paradigm was not to my taste at all....D&D was not the game for me" if the system and the paradigm of D&D did not mean "The arbitrariness, the strange limitations, the lack of focus on things that made the game fun, and the focus on things that made it boring and bizarre"?
I don't see the implication. He asked, and I answered, but the fact that I didn't much like D&D during the "golden age" of the late seventies and early 80s and in fact left D&D for greener pastures during those years was tangential and unrelated to my point.

D&D has always been playable under a variety of playstyles, not just a single one. The mechanics sometimes didn't support you as well as I'd have liked, but that's really beside the point. Especially since they do now, under several possible rulesets, including late era 2e, 3e and 4e.

In fact, if anything I'm an example of what I've been talking about all along. There's a reason that a lot of people would rather just make a search check instead of give a detailed account of my searching... they think it's boring. Apparently the game designers agree, since several iterations of the rules now have allowed for that option.

Ariosto made a rather smug and dismissive claim that such players might as well not even play D&D at all, don't even recognize that it's a game, or are lacking in imagination, to paraphrase.

I don't see how that's a cause for confusion. I'm refuting the rather insulting notion that only unimaginitive people could possibly have a reason for that playstyle. Also, his claim that I might as well not play D&D at all then is nonsensical; for one thing, I don't play the editions that are most closely associated with the playstyle he's talking about, and the editions I do play address that problem to my satisfaction. Therefore, I can play them, they support my preferred playstyle, and we all have fun. What's the problem?

Other than that Ariosto is making the bizarre claim that there's only one way to play D&D, and he's completely ignoring any developments in the rules systems that post-date 1985 or so? And is being insulting and dismissive to boot?
However, I believe he made a separate point assuming that option 2 is in some way true. Someone please correct me if I misinterpreted his post, or if I am wrong in my recollection. But this new argument (option 2 is correct) is distinct from the point he was making about statistical analysis (one of the three options must be correct).
It's not 100% clear if he was making that point, but it sure seemed like he was implying it. Since correlation (which I don't believe exists) does not demand causality, my point was from the beginning that even if this hypothetical correlation exists, it's some other variable that's the cause of the problem.
 
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cmbarona

First Post
It's not 100% clear if he was making that point, but it sure seemed like he was implying it. Since correlation (which I don't believe exists) does not demand causality, my point was from the beginning that even if this hypothetical correlation exists, it's some other variable that's the cause of the problem.

Agreed. I think poor DMing can take just about any form and happen in just about any world. These interactions of variables also hinge on different ways of defining poor DMing: "gotcha" moments, forced bad choices, and railroading are all things I can think of off the top of my head that both 1) are poor DMing and 2) can exist in both G&G and non-G&G games. A detailed analysis of DMing style and world characteristics would need to evaluate a multitude of data points.
 

Raven Crowking

First Post
I don't see the implication. He asked, and I answered, but the fact that I didn't much like D&D during the "golden age" of the late seventies and early 80s and in fact left D&D for greener pastures during those years was tangential and unrelated to my point.

There is a difference between the point one might intend to make, and what one says, however.

If I say "I don't like 0e, because 0e is X, Y, and Z", I might have meant to say many things, but the most rational interpretation is that I think X, Y, and Z to be characteristics of 0e, and that on this basis I don't like it.

Similarly, if one says "I don't like D&D, because D&D is X, Y, and Z".

Ariosto may not have understood what you meant, but I don't think he can be blamed for it if that is the case.

YMMV, of course.


RC
 

And I'm not sure that I understand what he meant. It's possible that we're talking past each other entirely.

In any case; hence the follow-up clarification. Also:
Raven Crowking said:
If I say "I don't like 0e, because 0e is X, Y, and Z", I might have meant to say many things, but the most rational interpretation is that I think X, Y, and Z to be characteristics of 0e, and that on this basis I don't like it.

Similarly, if one says "I don't like D&D, because D&D is X, Y, and Z".
Then again, if I say, "I don't like X, Y and Z" with no reference to D&D until asked at all, then it's not my fault if someone assumed that X, Y and Z are integral and mandated by D&D when in fact that's not the case at all and never has been. If I've been misunderstood, it's because unwarranted assumptions have been... well, assumed.
 
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