Confession: I like Plot

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You see, this, I don't consider a plot. You've got a situation... A crime at a church, a npc hiring out help to solve the crime, clues at the church lead to the sewer, clues in the sewer lead to the temple, the wererats in the temple are the ones that did it. You have that situation and about three more, and you've got a nice start to a little sand-boxy campaign.

Amazing. All this time what I've been calling plot you've been calling sandbox.

So here's a question for you: In my experience, once you present that crime at the church, the players always, always take the bait. After all, they came to the game table for adventure; I've offered them adventure, and everyone's happy. In 30 years of gaming, on two continents, with scores of gaming groups, in campaigns and pickup games, I don't think I've ever had a case in which the players didn't go for the plot hook.

So why are you sandboxers so obsessed with the idea that the players are free to ignore plot hooks? Is it pure philosophy, or do you really game with people who, a significant amount of the time, ignore plot hooks and wander off to do their own thing? (And if so, frankly, why?)
 

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Amazing. All this time what I've been calling plot you've been calling sandbox.

So here's a question for you: In my experience, once you present that crime at the church, the players always, always take the bait. After all, they came to the game table for adventure; I've offered them adventure, and everyone's happy. In 30 years of gaming, on two continents, with scores of gaming groups, in campaigns and pickup games, I don't think I've ever had a case in which the players didn't go for the plot hook.

So why are you sandboxers so obsessed with the idea that the players are free to ignore plot hooks? Is it pure philosophy, or do you really game with people who, a significant amount of the time, ignore plot hooks and wander off to do their own thing? (And if so, frankly, why?)

It's funny because I've asked "pro-plot" people a very similar question. "Do you mean to tell me that if I don't lead the players by the nose to the adventure, they're just going to sit in the tavern and not do anything?" To which I've had a number tell me, "Yes." Which always leads me to wonder why those players are playing D&D in the first place.

If I give the lay of the land at the start of the campaign... "You live in the town of Generica, you're broke, the hobgoblins are massing to the north and the Baron needs volunteers, a merchant is hiring out caravan guards to cross the Horrible Desert of No Return, and the hermit in the corner claims to know the location of the Lost Whatsit of Whosit. What would you like to do?" the pcs are going to do something interesting, and I can roll with the punches from there.
 

"You live in the town of Generica, you're broke, the hobgoblins are massing to the north and the Baron needs volunteers, a merchant is hiring out caravan guards to cross the Horrible Desert of No Return, and the hermit in the corner claims to know the location of the Lost Whatsit of Whosit. What would you like to do?"
In that example, it's very obvious where the adventures are to be found. What if the GM just stops after the first or second comma - "You live in the town of Generica and you're broke" - and then leaves it up to the players to find the Baron's posters, the merchant and the hermit? I can see plenty of players floundering there, expecting the GM to make 'tonight's adventure' more obvious.
 

Amazing. All this time what I've been calling plot you've been calling sandbox.

So here's a question for you: In my experience, once you present that crime at the church, the players always, always take the bait. After all, they came to the game table for adventure; I've offered them adventure, and everyone's happy. In 30 years of gaming, on two continents, with scores of gaming groups, in campaigns and pickup games, I don't think I've ever had a case in which the players didn't go for the plot hook.

So why are you sandboxers so obsessed with the idea that the players are free to ignore plot hooks? Is it pure philosophy, or do you really game with people who, a significant amount of the time, ignore plot hooks and wander off to do their own thing? (And if so, frankly, why?)
Well it gives the players a reason to be there at least. They have more say over the campaign structure.

I agree with you that players almost always do bite at the single plot hook, when presented. They've shown up, they presumably want to play whatever the GM has prepared. Imo the assumption is usually that the GM has only prepared one adventure, ie the game isn't a sandbox.

I have seen a few examples of players refusing the adventure, though they are very rare. I've been guilty of it myself. Imho the players are always wrong to do this (unless the adventure is Tomb of Horrors).
 

In that example, it's very obvious where the adventures are to be found. What if the GM just stops after the first or second comma - "You live in the town of Generica and you're broke" - and then leaves it up to the players to find the Baron's posters, the merchant and the hermit? I can see plenty of players floundering there, expecting the GM to make 'tonight's adventure' more obvious.

Yeah, but who says you're supposed to do it that way? The key to any good sand-box is giving information to the players. To make the players want to interact with your world, you've got to tell them what's in your world.

The only way that choice for the players is truly meaningful is if it's an informed choice. Hiding the choices from the players is just as bad as not giving them any choice in the first place.
 

It's funny because I've asked "pro-plot" people a very similar question. "Do you mean to tell me that if I don't lead the players by the nose to the adventure, they're just going to sit in the tavern and not do anything?"

But that leads me back to my original point, actually: Good GMing doesn't involve "leading players by the nose."

So we both agree that a plot hook is fine (and we seem to agree that 99% of the time, the players will run with it). We accept the expectation that the plot hook will lead to a number of preconceived scenes. We agree that a good GM accepts that the players may go another route or that these scenes may unfold in unexpected ways or produce unexpected results. We agree that a good GM looks at the consequences of what has happened in the game (including unexpected consequences), and reacts accordingly.

It seems logical to me (and I think we agree, though I don't want to put words in your mouth) that from this point, a preconceived end-point for the game fits this model--even if nobody knows beforehand exactly how that end-point will play out. (The players bought into the throw-the-ring-into-the-vocano goal. They went through a number of scenes, some expected, others less so, in an effort to get the ring to the volcano. It makes sense that the game will probably reach its climax at or near the volcano.)

So what exactly is our point of difference?
 

That kind of gets to the crux of my last post. If that's not what you mean, what do you mean? I think there's a very basic non-understanding between the parties - or at least on my part - as to what the other side means by "plot" and how it relates to how you run an adventure.

Once again I can only speak for myself, but when I say "plot", I mean the series of obstacles, events and situations that I expect the PCs to encounter. There is usually some sort of sequence, in as much as there are introductory elements and finale elements. Depending on the game (and how much time I have), the plot may be more or less tightly plotted, but there is probably an idea of a "default" plot that the PCs can safely follow and expect to have interesting challenges with a dramatically satisfying conclusion. There is almost always some deviation from my initial plan, but it mostly (80-90% of the time) ends up with a final confrontation that is something like what I initially conceived.

My games also have what I think of as less plotted (or more "sandbox") periods in which I run scenes (you are at place X and you have interaction Y) to help PC development, advance a story or introduce an NPC, and the PCs have a broader opportunity to pursue their own agendas. (Generally, these agendas are following up on plot threads that I had dropped but one or more players finds important.) During these less plotted periods, I have a plan as to how I'm going to run the session (mostly to make sure that each player there has something to do), but I don't have any underlying agenda or preference about how things would turn out.

Stepping back a bit, I guess I think of plot as something created principally by the GM in which the GM is making a significant effort (either behind the scenes or with the cooperation of the players) to ensure that the issue at stake reaches a dramatically satisfying resolution. (The resolution can be success or defeat for the PCs -- either one can be satisfying.) In contrast, I think of sandboxing as a more organic process that allows for more player whim in determining what happens. In my opinion, a good GM blends both design philosophies - changing plots to accomodate player motivations and adding plot into sandbox situations to make sure that these organic stories have a satisfying conclusion.

Either one can be disfunctional. In general, a plot is disfunctional when there is no buy-in for the players. Either they don't care about what's at stake or they thing the "assumed plan" that would bring them to the obstacles is stupid. In contrast, a sandbox is disfunctional when the players spend a lot of time working on something that they care about only to discover that it didn't really matter or never could have succeeded.

My synthesis of these two approaches is to say that a good game needs two things:
(1) Goals with buy-in from both the players and their characters
(2) Interesting and satisfying things that happen when the players pursue those goals

And I think you can come about it either way. You can use a sandbox in which players develop their goals on their own (and the buy-in comes naturally). In a sandbox, you have a challenge of creating situations that will result in interesting in satisfying things. Alternatively, you can write a plot that intrinsicly involves interesting and satisfying things that occur and then try to sell the PCs on the motivation.

Both approaches have their strengths and weaknesses, and either approach will generate an awful game if you don't address both points. A plotted game is terrible if the GM screws up and writes a plot that PCs don't want to do, and a sanbox game is terrible if the GM abdicates his responsibility to make sure that something interesting happens (or, at least, is very likely to happen).

And, of course, both approaches are delightful (if a matter of taste) when performed well.

-KS
 

As a GM, I would never decide to run a game in which the opening assumption is that pcs are going to try to defeat the forces of darkness. I would gladly run a game in which there are forces of darkness and the pcs decide that they are going to try to defeat them. Changes or discrepancies in the players' conception of the campaign goal can be hashed out in-game or out-of-game as appropriate.

This will differ greatly by the group. As a GM, I want to run a particular type of game. Because there are plenty of players who want to play, I have the privilege of being able to set the game type and selecting players who want to join. This is accepted in my gaming group. (Actually, in my on-going campaigns, I get new players to come in by deciding who I want to invite, thinking up a character for them and then pitching them on the role.) A friend of mine wanted to run a game in mythological ancient Roman Europe, so we all had to create characters that were appropriate and interested in playing out the plot she had in mind. (I'd include a link to the Alea Iacta story hour, but I don't have it handy.)

If you have a bunch of players who are more independent minded (or who you don't know as well), you may need to build a campaign that's more focused on what the players want. YMMV.

(I'm sure many people on this board run excellent games that are based entirely on player-derived goals. I prefer playing and running in games in which all the PCs have goals that are aligned to some higher GM-based theme or purpose.)

-KS
 

So what exactly is our point of difference?

As I said in my first post in this thread, I think the point of difference may simply be that one side is using "plot" and "story" to mean something different than the other side is. When I hear someone say they like a plot in their rpg, it sounds to me as if they want something resembling what I described in DL7, a step-by-step, scene-by-scene, pre-arranged order of events for the adventure, wherein it really doesn't matter what the pcs do.

Really, the "sand-box" talk is just a reaction to the published adventures in the Dragonlance mold, which have dominated the hobby for the better part of a quarter century, with all the sins of pc and npc plot immunity, lack of player agency, scripted scenes and so on. "Sand-boxing" nothing new, nothing radical, and 25 years ago wouldn't have even needed to be explained or named.
 

When I hear someone say they like a plot in their rpg, it sounds to me as if they want something resembling what I described in DL7, a step-by-step, scene-by-scene, pre-arranged order of events for the adventure, wherein it really doesn't matter what the pcs do.

For comparison, I think the Freeport adventures are a good example of plotted modules that actually do the plotting well and provide enough background information (and advise) for the GM to keep the game moving foward even if the PCs don't follow the expected path.

-KS
 

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