• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

What a great storytelling DM looks like

Yeah, I'm not seeing the "storytelling" here, just evocative descriptions and a sense of what the npcs are doing.

I think we all have different ideas of what storytelling means. On top of that, it means different tings in different circumstances.

Just a few of the things storytelling RPGs can be from my personal experience:
  • Railroading
  • A narration technique while playing a scenario
  • Any kind of narrative role-play
  • The campaign flow from one scenario to another, with a connecting superplot
  • A campaign journal written by a player that puts all the actions of this character into narrative focus, creating a personal "story" the other players can barely see in play
  • "An adventure is a series of connected fights - TWERPS"

This list is by no means exhaustive, nor are all these things nessecarily storytelling RPG techniques, I just want to say that the term is bu no means well define. It is a derogative to some, a buzzword to others, and gospel to a few. If we want to dsicuss it at depth, we might have to start discussing what we mean by the word.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Barastrondo, death does not appear to me quite terribly hard to find; I have had a 4e character come within one point of it in one round, and seen another character buy the farm thanks to "friendly fire".

But that's not really so much of a 'consequence' if (as suggested in the 4e DMG) a replacement character is going to be of "party level", whatever that happens to be whenever it happens to get built.

Heck, considering how comprehensively the 'build' dictates factors, it's close enough to automatic resurrection! (YMMV on the 'identity' question, of course.)

What get ditched are consequences with which one might actually have to deal. The 'encounter' gets turned into an isolated game. Alignment is essentially moot, and relationships with NPCs -- henchmen, hirelings, followers and subjects -- have been ripped out. Decisions matter less and less in everything from what happens in the imagined world, to how rapidly characters gain levels. What choices get offered are by design often -- and increasingly, in the shift from 3e to 4e -- trivial.

The very basic concept that it's a game is undermined at every turn.

Certainly, proclaiming certain consequences like death or energy drain "not fun" doesn't make them un-fun for players who enjoy those consequences — but at the same time, proclaiming them "fun" doesn't make it so for players who don't.
Might it someday occur to the "New & Improved" crowd that this truism goes both ways? What is not going both ways is the carrying out of programs to replace "inferior" forms of fun (e.g., D&D, WHFRP) with what a faction of people -- who have not wanted for other games, more to their tastes -- happens to prefer. So be it, but can we at least keep the rationale real? The existence of "old school" D&D (or WHFRP, or whatever is next to the scaffold) was no oppressive force preventing people who preferred Ars Magica, Champions, Rifts, Shadowrun, World of Darkness, or whatever, from playing their games!
 
Last edited:

Starfox said:
If we want to dsicuss it at depth, we might have to start discussing what we mean by the word.
I do not think it too much to ask, that if we are to discuss what a particular person wrote in a particular text, we should consider what he meant by the word.

We might even get the word right, and in this case the word is in fact a phrase.

"Tell a story to the players" is not identical with "storytelling"!

"Superior players will be able to create a character-driven, interactive story from these raw materials, and neither the players nor the GM can tell where the story is headed." Is there an absolute absence of story in that?
 


Barastrondo, death does not appear to me quite terribly hard to find; I have had a 4e character come within one point of it in one round, and seen another character buy the farm thanks to "friendly fire".

But that's not really so much of a 'consequence' if (as suggested in the 4e DMG) a replacement character is going to be of "party level", whatever that happens to be whenever it happens to get built.

Heck, considering how comprehensively the 'build' dictates factors, it's close enough to automatic resurrection! (YMMV on the 'identity' question, of course.)

Really depends on the players. At one end of the spectrum, you're absolutely right: one game token has been lost, and can be replaced with another token, one which may in fact be better optimized. At the other end, though, a player loses all manner of personalized roleplaying connections, from family and romantic entanglements to social ties and aspirations. It's about as satisfying as watching a really good TV show get canceled into its first season when it had enough plotlines for five. Most people probably fall somewhere in between, and it's hard to say where the majority is, but I'd guess the group who cares about a specific character as a persona is not a scant minority.

What get ditched are consequences with which one might actually have to deal. The 'encounter' gets turned into an isolated game. Alignment is essentially moot, and relationships with NPCs -- henchmen, hirelings, followers and subjects -- have been ripped out. Decisions matter less and less in everything from what happens in the imagined world, to how rapidly characters gain levels. What choices get offered are by design often -- and increasingly, in the shift from 3e to 4e -- trivial.

Again, vastly depends on the group. I find that there's been a steady increase in relationships with NPCs in most of the D&D games I've seen, starting right around 2e. The difference is that you spend more time relating to peers than vassals. While that may subtract a bit from the idea that the PCs are very special, given that there are other characters of their level as they ascend, on the other hand it makes certain roleplaying goals like romantic interests more satisfying. A player frequently is more interested in winning the heart of an NPC who is her equal than in obtaining the devotion of a hireling. Alignment is frequently moot, yes: but that's an outright feature rather than a bug to many groups out there. Villains become harder to spot and more complex. Player characters are defined by "what I would do" rather than "what a lawful good character would do."

I don't find that the replacement of certain sticks with certain carrots makes for worse roleplaying or more shallow character development. I think it simply makes another game option, one in which certain roleplayers prosper more even as other roleplayers don't.

The very basic concept that it's a game is undermined at every turn.

I don't agree. I think it becomes much less of a competitive game, and there's certainly not much D&D-as-"sport" element to it, but it's very much still a game.

Might it someday occur to the "New & Improved" crowd that this truism goes both ways? What is not going both ways is the carrying out of programs to replace "inferior" forms of fun (e.g., D&D, WHFRP) with what a faction of people -- who have not wanted for other games, more to their tastes -- happens to prefer. So be it, but can we at least keep the rationale real? The existence of "old school" D&D (or WHFRP, or whatever is next to the scaffold) was no oppressive force preventing people who preferred Ars Magica, Champions, Rifts, Shadowrun, World of Darkness, or whatever, from playing their games!

The existence of 4e is not an oppressive force preventing people who prefer older editions or new Old School Revolution from playing their games, either. It's basically another game option, and I think that's great!

When you have fewer RPGs on the market, frequently you would run into the issue that although everyone was technically playing D&D, they could be dramatically different styles. So someone who's always played hardcore Gygaxian D&D might join a group that started in the late 80s, was inspired by recent fantasy fiction, and basically threw out a lot of the consequences anyway as irrelevant to the kind of D&D they wanted to play. That player would be miserably unhappy (unless he found that the new group was a lot of fun, just different). Similarly, a new player who was more interested in long-term character development might be killed out of a more hardcore D&D game early, and decide that gaming wasn't really her cup of tea when the truth was that this particular style of play wasn't her cup of tea.

This may be something others disagree with, but I happen to feel that new editions don't themselves splinter the D&D fanbase: I think every notable shift is a sign that the fanbase was already splintered stylistically, and it's another faction's turn to write the D&D that in some ways they've always been playing. Now there are more games for everyone to play as written instead of trying to make a game system designed for someone else's style of play fit. This is a cool thing.
 
Last edited:

Proactive versus reactive, storytelling versus passive referee, you guys are hitting the nail on the head. But to call it old school versus new school, I just don't see it.

I agree. Tav could have a good discussion here, but I'm having trouble hearing over the sound of my internal voices debating his definitions. ;)
 

But that's not really so much of a 'consequence' if (as suggested in the 4e DMG) a replacement character is going to be of "party level", whatever that happens to be whenever it happens to get built.

Heck, considering how comprehensively the 'build' dictates factors, it's close enough to automatic resurrection! (YMMV on the 'identity' question, of course.)

At the risk of piling on, this seems like a very strange complaint to me. I suppose if you're playing a game in which the characters are nothing more than collections of stats, then - yes, dying isn't much of a penalty if you can easily recreate a nearly identical character.

But if you're playing a game in which the characters have meaningful relationships with the world and the NPCs (and other PCs) within it, then losing a character can be a very large penalty. When you have players who have been playing the same characters for over a decade, they get very attached to their characters. That sort of death isn't the sort of narrative that you play lightly. That they could create a new character with nearly identical capabilities doesn't let them re-create the same character.

What get ditched are consequences with which one might actually have to deal. The 'encounter' gets turned into an isolated game. Alignment is essentially moot, and relationships with NPCs -- henchmen, hirelings, followers and subjects -- have been ripped out. Decisions matter less and less in everything from what happens in the imagined world, to how rapidly characters gain levels. What choices get offered are by design often -- and increasingly, in the shift from 3e to 4e -- trivial.

The very basic concept that it's a game is undermined at every turn.

Again, I don't follow the connection between these issues. Yes, an encounter is resolved as a sub-game, but there can be (and should be) narrative consequences to losing that sub-game. Even if the PCs don't die, they could fail a quest or need to figure out another approach.

But how does this relate to alignment? (Are you thinking of a game in which, if the PCs don't act in a particular way, the GM says that they are acting "out of alignment" and penalizes the clerics?) How does this relate to henchmen, hirelings, followers and subjects? Are most NPC interactions with these classes of people? Do characters stop assuming leadership roles in organizations because they are playing in 4e?

Ariosto, I think this relates to your definition of "game." I agree that meaningful consequences are crucially important to RPGs, but I don't see how the particular elements you identified make consequences less meaningful.

-KS
 

Both 3e and 4e have tremendously flexible mechanics that you can bend to almost any purpose. Take advantage of that. Figure out what skills, feats and class features the PCs possess and make sure you give them a reason to use every one. Some of the best advice I've gotten is that a cool PC feature that they never get to use is worse than not having it in the first place -- so build in opportunities for your PCs to use their cool toys, and have the story react to their actions.

This is a big gun (perhaps The Big Gun) in my adventure design arsenal. This advice is echoed by an excellent post by Evil Hat's Fred Hicks about the Secret Language of Character Sheets. Players will generally choose to make characters that can do things that they find fun. So you, as a GM, should take this as a laundry list of things that the players find fun.

Or, at the very least, if the ability wasn't explicitly chosen by the player (such as being part of the class or package deal), you'll remove the lingering feeling that some aspect of their character was useless, and overall help to build the feeling that they are playing an important role in bringing about success in the game. Which, for me, is the ultimate measure of balance in a game.

Take caution, though. A player might choose abilities they let them minimize conditions they anticipate that they don't find fun. So watch out for those. :cool:
 

Barastrondo said:
Again, vastly depends on the group.
See, one can say that about anything. "Does playing D&D involve [insert events depicted in Jack Chick tract] or [events depicted in TV-movie based on Rona Jaffre novel]?" Well, it depends on the group!

So, I have confined myself to remarks upon the game as presented in the 4E PHB and DMG.

This may be something others disagree with, but I happen to feel that new editions don't themselves splinter the D&D fanbase
I don't consider folks who loathe X with a passion to be part of the "fan base" for X. If I were to restore the 1970s D&D game by any approximation, and put 4E out of print, I would hardly expect the 4E fans to count me among their number. What would Pat Pulling (were she yet alive) want for their favorite game? Why, the same thing: to put it out of print! So, no, these 'editions' are not splintering the fan base; they are pitting different fandoms against each other.

Now there are more games for everyone to play as written instead of trying to make a game system designed for someone else's style of play fit. This is a cool thing.
Right. It was soooo "uncool" to release Vampire in the first place, instead of calling it a 'new edition' of Ars Magica or Call of Cthulhu or something. How many games has White Wolf had in print at the same time? Bad, bad White Wolf! No more new games for you, until you reissue Exalted as "D&D X".
 
Last edited:

Right. It was soooo "uncool" to release Vampire in the first place, instead of calling it a 'new edition' of Ars Magica or Call of Cthulhu or something. How many games has White Wolf had in print at the same time? Bad, bad White Wolf! No more new games for you, until you reissue Exalted as "D&D X".

Are you talking about Vampire:The Masquerade, Vampire:The Masquerade Second Edition, Vampire:The Masquerade Revised or Vampire: The Requiem here?

-edit or for something a little closer to the point for anyone who remembers the flame wars, Mage: The Ascension, Mage: The Ascension Revised or Mage: The Awakening?
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top