Return of the DonkeyHorse!

[Hussar]

This, and a couple other threads, have encouraged me to delve into moving my game closer to the 'simulation' side in regards to world building.... I want to be able to tell the players what is available for purchase or trade in the local village, I want thier choices to have some meaning in the game, and I want to challenge them with the limitations of encumbrance.
Having a tool that grants a bonus to a skill would be desired... leading to the bartering skill challenge and the question of who carries all that stuff. It may also lead to adventuring to the closest town as the village doesn't have that equipment handy.

Somehow I think a bunch of mundane equipment that grant a non-stackable bonus of 1 or 2 points will not endanger the balance of the game and provide hooks for adventurs and challenges. I also think it makes the game world much more 'real' {at least for me}.

I have no desire to turn mundane equipment, and thereby shopping/shops/villages, into a bland fluff.

As such, a book of mundane stuff with some tech level guidelines and some world building guidelines would get my hard earned cash.

YMMV, and all that jazz

And that's fine for you. But, I don't want it. There's already a D&D game that gives you all of this in a nice neat package. Actually, there's several. Why does 4e have to go that route as well? The more you add to the system, the more subsequent material HAS to account for it. Which means that for those who don't want the added systems, later material becomes less and less useful as the power creep results in every encounter having to be powered down to original levels.

We've seen this happen in EVERY edition of D&D.

 

[BenBrown]

And that's fine for you. But, I don't want it. There's already a D&D game that gives you all of this in a nice neat package. Actually, there's several. Why does 4e have to go that route as well? The more you add to the system, the more subsequent material HAS to account for it. Which means that for those who don't want the added systems, later material becomes less and less useful as the power creep results in every encounter having to be powered down to original levels.

We've seen this happen in EVERY edition of D&D.

You see it happen in just about every game with a continual stream of supplements.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

And that's fine for you. But, I don't want it. There's already a D&D game that gives you all of this in a nice neat package. Actually, there's several. Why does 4e have to go that route as well? The more you add to the system, the more subsequent material HAS to account for it. Which means that for those who don't want the added systems, later material becomes less and less useful as the power creep results in every encounter having to be powered down to original levels.

Looks like its time to agree to disagree

.. but just checking; Thieves tools, climbers kits, and other mundane equipment that grant an bonus to skills already exist in the core 4e rules.... they are in the PHB. The Burglars gloves {+1}, Rogue's gloves {+3}, and Guildmaster gloves {+5} exist in the same book. So a trained, skill focused, properly equiped Epic level Rogue can be expected to have at least 15 points spread above thier non-trained, non-equiped peer.
So if this suggested "book o' stuff" can't really impact on the brokeness of the rules... unless for some weird reason its ruled that all the equipment bonuses stack. If mundane equipment breaks the game, then its already broken.

The OP is asking whether an exanded, detailed listing of mundane stuff.. beyond the adventuring focused material in the PHB, would be something folks would be interested in. I, for one, am interesting in resources that allow me to build more detail into my game. I want to be able to tie certain commodities to certain regions and give my players in-character reasons to go to country X.

Non-abstracted equipment that provides a mechanical benefit can be used to create adventuring hooks and clarify the world. Or, it can be ignored much like the encumbrance rules are often neglected. I don't think the presence of either in the core rules breaks the game. But I do think the lack of either would reduce my enjoyment of the game.


Nifft.. I could have sworn that 'Equipment Bonus' was codified in the rules, but I don't see that anywhere... of course I don't follow the errata very well. Assuming that it is somewhere, kits and tools would then be non-stackable. Alternatively a non-stacking 'Mundane Bonus' could be used that covers kits, tools, and backgrounds... reducing the skill spread by a little bit.
IMHO, if a player wants to have a locksmith background and keep masterwork thieves tools so that they can be the best evar at picking locks.. why not? Obviously the player thinks this is cool and fun, so just say 'yes'!

I do like your idea of Circumstantial Advantage, however I do that as a 'DMs Friend' without tying it to an encounter power. I also use Stalker0's Obsideon skill challenge system, which fixes the Aid other problem quite nicely.

 

[Reynard]

+10 to Diplomacy checks?

Masterwork bikin's don't confer bonuses on their own, rather they double the Comeliness modifier of the wearer (including penalties).

 

[korjik]

A note for all: The original intention was to have these items not provide any sort of functional bonus. At least not a combat/adventuring applicable bonus.

The whole reason that this thread was created is the fact that there is pretty much nothing to spend gold on other than more magic, be it rituals and components, potions and other consumables, or even actual magic items.

Giving a range of mundane items that give bonuses isnt any different than giving minor magical items, and isnt what this thread is supposed to be about.

This thread is more an attempt to give the characters more of a life outside of adventuring. It came from my desire to decouple wealth from level and Zar's desire to have a mule carry his stuff for him . It also come from a very long standing discussion on what books I think WOTC should put out. I have for more than a decade been of the impression that the emphasis on players is shortsighted, that a good DMs aid may be low margin up front, but that aid will create more DMs, which will then create more players, who will buy player oriented books. Heck, I dont really like 4e all that much, but it is so easy to run that I really dont want to go back to the bear that is 3.xe.

A thought just occured to me. What about making any bonus from items an item bonus (duh) and make them overly expensive, like about 1000gp for a +1? That would push the level where the items start becoming prevalent up toward paragon at the least. An extra +1 shoudnt be a big deal then.

(Yeah, I know that I said I didnt want the bonuses at all, but that dosent mean I wont try to make a solution for those who want the bonuses)

I have a question for those who think they would end up with half the party being alot more powerful than the other half because they spent all their money on magic. Dont you already have this problem to some degree? If half the party would like to spend money on non-combat stuff, but they cant, isnt this a problem also?

 

[Ourph]

I have a question for those who think they would end up with half the party being alot more powerful than the other half because they spent all their money on magic. Dont you already have this problem to some degree? If half the party would like to spend money on non-combat stuff, but they cant, isnt this a problem also?

The thing is, non-magical personal items (as opposed to magic armor or castles) are just never going to cost enough to be relevant to the PCs overall wealth after about 2nd level. If my 6th level PCs want to carry around a crowbar, an axe and a bag of iron spikes as part of their "Dungeon Door Entry Kit" I'm happy for them to do that. I'm also happy to handwave the cost because I see no practical difference between the 3gp such a kit would likely cost and free. At that level, 3gp is essentially the same as free.

I'm not opposed to the PCs wanting and having mundane items, I just don't see any benefit to having a book full of items and costs listed, when the costs essentially amount to "not expensive enough to worry about" for 28 out of the 30 levels the game is designed to cover. That said, I'm not opposed to such a book as long as it is completely self-contained. I WOULD however, be opposed to that kind of information taking up space in a book that had other stuff in it that I did want. I certainly wouldn't want 30-40 pages of that kind of information in a future Adventurer's Vault for example.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Again, just my personal take on it, but I'd wager that a list of mundane equipment that becomes core will have less overall impact than a single new high-level Daily or Encounter Power that comes out in, say...PHB7. Said power is, as per design protocols, balanced with the stuff from PHB1, but it does things in an entirely new way...no other power does what it does the way it does.

And as a power from a core book in 4Ed's "Everything is Core" design philosophy, an adventure designer would be justified in assuming that said daily would be available to all, and could write an entire adventure hinging on its use (as I've said before, that's bad design, but bad designs do happen).

And if the party didn't have it, what's the poor DM to do?

My feeling is that a problem like that is far more disruptive than a table of prices for 10' poles and donkeyhorses.

 

[Nifft]

A note for all: The original intention was to have these items not provide any sort of functional bonus. At least not a combat/adventuring applicable bonus.

The whole reason that this thread was created is the fact that there is pretty much nothing to spend gold on other than more magic, be it rituals and components, potions and other consumables, or even actual magic items.

That's what gold is for. If you're allowed to spend it on things that don't help you in combat, then you're at risk of falling off the adventurer's treadmill of expected gear bonuses.

This thread is more an attempt to give the characters more of a life outside of adventuring. It came from my desire to decouple wealth from level and Zar's desire to have a mule carry his stuff for him .

And that's cool. But the players shouldn't have to choose between being cool and being effective. They should be allowed to be both.

Thus, a single resource should not be used for both 'cool' and 'effective'.

I have a question for those who think they would end up with half the party being alot more powerful than the other half because they spent all their money on magic. Dont you already have this problem to some degree? If half the party would like to spend money on non-combat stuff, but they cant, isnt this a problem also?

It could be, but 4e tells DMs to give out "treasure parcels" from "wish lists", and to give PCs items which they can use.

But yeah: if the DM gives your Paladin a +4 sword, and you sell it in order to buy a herd of dire donkeyhorses, then you risk making yourself irrelevant in combat.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Lanefan]

It could be, but 4e tells DMs to give out "treasure parcels" from "wish lists", and to give PCs items which they can use.

But yeah: if the DM gives your Paladin a +4 sword, and you sell it in order to buy a herd of dire donkeyhorses, then you risk making yourself irrelevant in combat.

These are bugs, not features.

The question was and still is how to debug this program to improve its base functionality.

Lan-"or something like that"-efan

 

[Nifft]

These are bugs, not features.

The question was and still is how to debug this program to improve its base functionality.

Lan-"or something like that"-efan

Intentional self-gimping leading to self being gimped is a bug in the system?

You really, really have to go out of your way to make yourself irrelevant, but it's still possible... and even if it wasn't possible during character creation, you could still render yourself irrelevant via studious application of bad tactics.

Cheers, -- N