System that is gritty AND heroic?

[Skallgrim]

I'm gonna vote for GURPS on this one.

Hang on, I know someone's going to point out how lethal GURPS is....

What I did, when I was co-running a GURPS fantasy campaign, was figure out the points level which we wanted the PCs to be running on. That will help determine how heroic and cool they look.

I would particularly recommend giving them fewer points than expected at the start, and giving them more xp than normal for the first few sessions. This seems to lead to more focused characters.

Then, on top of the points that the PCs had to spend, every single PC also had one level of Lucky (reroll a die roll once per hour) and two or three (I forget) levels of Hard to Kill. The neat thing about Hard to Kill was that it affected your "death checks" in the game. Once you were sufficiently injured, you had to roll against your HT (kind of like CON) to avoid dying. If you made the roll, but only due to the bonus from Hard to Kill, you lost consciousness and appeared dead.

This way, you could have vicious combats in a realistic system, but the PCs, by virtue of being Heroes, were more likely to survive them, even if, in the combat itself, they were no more or less vulnerable than the other combatants.

Also, given the intensely modular aspect of GURPS, it is very easy to dial down the vulnerability of PCs with things like Hard to Kill, etc. to fit your own personal GM preferences.

 

[skinnydwarf]

Riddle of Steel

Actually, I don't know if this game would meet your requirements, as I've never played it, and I read it several years ago. But from what I recall, the game is pretty heroic, but still gritty (as the combat system is supposed to be very realistic).

 

[Votan]

For those who REALLY want to put their lives on the line, and know it, and prove they have solid back bones and huge brass pairs, and plenty of guts in between can test your bravery in the new Hackmaster Basic.

But like I am saying, you have to really be willing to die, because you will. So only true blood and guts adventurers dare try it.

Is it significantly more lethal then AD&D?

 

[Nifft]

Riddle of Steel

Actually, I don't know if this game would meet your requirements, as I've never played it, and I read it several years ago. But from what I recall, the game is pretty heroic, but still gritty (as the combat system is supposed to be very realistic).

IIRC, the sample combats led to "messy death" after about three die rolls. Might be too lethal for his needs.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Steel_Wind]

Rolemaster 2d Ed. We played it for fifteen years.

It IS a lot of work though. If a computer program to handle everything had been properly devised, it would be vastly better -- but ICE prevented that from ever happening to a satisfactory level of slickness.

 

[coyote6]

For those who REALLY want to put their lives on the line, and know it, and prove they have solid back bones and huge brass pairs, and plenty of guts in between can test your bravery in the new Hackmaster Basic.

But like I am saying, you have to really be willing to die, because you will. So only true blood and guts adventurers dare try it.

Sounds like you'd need to add some sort of hero point mechanic to the game to meet the OP's needs.

Speaking of hero points, a True20 or M&M game where every attack is lethal can be pretty brutal, without Conviction/Hero Points.

 

[karlindel]

I'll second Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (3rd Edition) and Mongoose Runequest II.

WFRP3 has a gritty and heroic feel to it. The critical wound system is interesting, as you can get a critical wound at the start of a fight and keep going. Critical wounds have definite in game effects (penalties to certain actions), and stay around for quite awhile. You can also get very narrative during combat, as different dice represent different things (i.e. if your successful dice were from your skill, you narrate a skillful swing or advanced technique, if your successful dice were from fortune dice, you narrate a lucky shot) There are also a variety of effects that can be generated depending on the roll, including hits with negative effects and misses that generate positive effects.

Runequest II has a combat system which includes a variety of maneuvers that a character can use if the character's attack roll is better than the opponents parry roll, or if the character's parry roll is better than the opponent's attack roll.

 

[Treebore]

Is it significantly more lethal then AD&D?

Without a doubt. I think it took me a 6 months to kill as many PC's in AD&D as I did in 3 months of HMb. Plus when I ran AD&D we gamed whole weekends, our HMb games have only been about 3 hours per week.

This is just with Penetration dice, crit and fumbles won't be added until Advanced comes out.

So only true blood and guts players need apply. You will die, many times. Get used to it.

 

[Treebore]

Sounds like you'd need to add some sort of hero point mechanic to the game to meet the OP's needs.

Speaking of hero points, a True20 or M&M game where every attack is lethal can be pretty brutal, without Conviction/Hero Points.

Definitely. I wasn't trying to meet the OP's needs, I was just making people aware that a truly deadly game for real blood and guts adventurers exists.

I'm serious, if you don't like dying and going through many PC's, don't try out HM, you can't handle it.

Making it to 5th level in this game is really something to brag about, because it is a real, and uncommon to rare, accomplishment.

Its a real blood and guts, no holds barred, the monsters WILL eat you kind of game.

Edit: and the game does have Honor, that can save you a few times, but it probably won't be enough, it often isn't.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Savage Worlds is both gritty and heroic as long as you're stingy with giving out additional bennies. It's gritty because a lot of damage and a bad die roll can leave you minus an arm, and it's heroic because proper use of bennies will let you shine and overcome the (often formidable) odds.