D&D 3E/3.5 Finally got a 4E cleric to feel like 3.5

[AbdulAlhazred]

I would think at low levels Righteous Brand WOULD be pretty hard to avoid, but then Astral Seal is fairly ridiculous. Its actually a LOT better than Recovery Strike BTW when you work out the numbers.

I don't think there's anything wrong with this hybrid. I think you can do pretty similar stuff with either a STR cleric or a STR Paladin but at least combining them is pretty much piling identical stat requirements on top of each other. Given the limited options for power choices in the two underlying builds combining them is probably not a bad idea either. Throw in a good domain feat or CD and things could be interesting.

You could also up your healing ability by ditching the Paladin armor thing. Its NICE, but you could spend that Hybrid Talent feat in other interesting ways. Chainmail is not exactly bad and there are plenty of good chain enchantments for clerics like Astral Fire. You can always spend a single feat to up yourself to scale, which honestly is on a par with plate in most respects. Even with chain you can get some pretty silly AC as Masterwork kicks in pretty quickly. The 9th level STR cleric in my main game is pushing an AC in the mid 20's with +3 Astral Fire Chain and that is really plenty of AC! Even the +2 variety will do a pretty good job. This also frees you up more for getting a honking big weapon, which NEVER hurts. Heck, with a high enough STR and say a fullblade even Power Attack is at least not a terrible option anymore.

 

[mneme]

When you check out your at wills you need to take into account the different domains and how that adds buffs to your attacks. The drawback of Holy Strike if I remember correctly is that all its domains are ruled by evil gods.

I don't know about that.

Domains for holy strike: fate freedom luck strength vengeance

Non-evil gods (leaving out Eberron)
Fate: Avandra, Ioun, Raven Queen
Freedom: Avandra, Olladra, Illmater (FR), Meilikki (FR)
Luck: Avandra, Tymora(FR)
Strength: Bahamut (FR only), Kord, Tempus (FR)
Vengeance: Shevarash (FR)

Ok, so Vengeance is kinda out unless you're FR or Eberon, but the others all have options. And Avandra is kinda awesome for holy strike, as all three of her domains affect it (including the Power of Luck, which lets you crit on 19-20 with Lance of Faith and Holy Strike).

 

[AndrewDB]

I played a cleric in 2nd and 3rd edition. The character was less magic and more battle as well, though never trying for the uber-cleric-munchkin thing that happened in 3rd edition. I played the cleric this way because it fit my preferred character image, not for mechanical superiority, and because the paladin's magical and healing abilities weren't enough to keep even my small party of three alive earlier on in the campaign.

However, in 4th edition the paladin did it for me. I saw a divine warrior who wears plate and could function as a healer for a small party. The paladin in 4th edition does an excellent job for those of us who want a defender who is a capable leader.

The problem for you doesn't seem to be the cleric in 4th edition. The problem is the overwhelming premise of 4th edition itself. Everyone has their own thing, everyone does their own thing very well, but everyone needs someone else to survive a complex scenario. Many of us who like 4th edition like it because it doesn't accommodate the "does everything better than you" uber-cleric.

I don't mean for this to be a put-down. I just think it's important that we realize the question being asked is actually, "how do I make 4th edition less like 4th edition and more like 3rd edition?" And the answer seems to be, "not without a lot of effort to contradict the intent of the game."

Anyway... I'd suggest starting from paladin and going from there. Paladin will give you the defender role first, the leader role as a respectable second, and the striker role as a some-of-the-time third if you multi-class into a striker class of your choice. This may get you closer to your goal than starting with cleric.

 

[phil500]

1) Astral Seal is fairly ridiculous. Its actually a LOT better than Recovery Strike BTW when you work out the numbers.

2) Given the limited options for power choices in the two underlying builds combining them is probably not a bad idea either.

3) You could also up your healing ability by ditching the Paladin armor thing.

1) Can you show me? doesnt working out the numbers involve a lot of assumptions?

2) thats why I went with the hybrid. I dont see why everyone is suggesting pure cleric or paladin.

3) im probably going to give up the blessed shifter feat now that i realize its only temporary. what feat would I use to up the healing?

As for paladin armor- i doubt i would ever give that up. its 4 feats for the price of 1, and this build wouldnt even qualify for 2 of those. it really hurts to give up channel divinity though.

 

[CovertOps]

Here is an option using a full Cleric build, but it doesn't get to full power until about Paragon (level 11)

You have two choices about what is more important to you along the build path. If you want to be more like a defender then stick with the feats I picked below (Light/Heavy shield). At level 11 when you get your paragon path (Battle Chaplain) you can retrain these two feats for other options since Battle Chaplain gives you those for free.

If you prefer to be more like a striker then drop the shield feats for something that gives you more damage. As always you'll want the level 6 Iron Armbands of Power to help with damage as a magic item. As above at level 11 you'll be able to pick up a Heavy Shield from Battle Chaplain.

Either path you take has a feat slot open at level 10

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 11
Longtooth Shifter, Cleric, Battle Chaplain

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 21, Con 15, Dex 9, Int 13, Wis 19, Cha 11.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 13, Dex 8, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 10.


AC: 16 Fort: 20 Reflex: 16 Will: 21
HP: 77 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 19

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +11, Arcana +11, Insight +14, Heal +14

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +9, Endurance +9, History +6, Intimidate +5, Nature +9, Perception +9, Stealth +4, Streetwise +5, Thievery +4, Athletics +12

FEATS
Cleric: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Bastard sword)
Level 2: Shield Proficiency (Light)
Level 4: Shield Proficiency (Heavy)
Level 6: Armor Proficiency (Scale)
Level 8: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
Level 11: Armor Proficiency (Plate)

POWERS

====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

 

[renau1g]

I don't know about that.

Domains for holy strike: fate freedom luck strength vengeance

Non-evil gods (leaving out Eberron)
Fate: Avandra, Ioun, Raven Queen
Freedom: Avandra, Olladra, Illmater (FR), Meilikki (FR)
Luck: Avandra, Tymora(FR)
Strength: Bahamut (FR only), Kord, Tempus (FR)
Vengeance: Shevarash (FR)

Ok, so Vengeance is kinda out unless you're FR or Eberon, but the others all have options. And Avandra is kinda awesome for holy strike, as all three of her domains affect it (including the Power of Luck, which lets you crit on 19-20 with Lance of Faith and Holy Strike).

Good thing he's playing in LFR right?

 

[phil500]

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 13, Dex 8, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 10.


FEATS
Cleric: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Bastard sword)
Level 2: Shield Proficiency (Light)
Level 4: Shield Proficiency (Heavy)
Level 6: Armor Proficiency (Scale)
Level 8: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
Level 11: Armor Proficiency (Plate)

Im not sure what you're getting at. this build is actually a great argument for a hybrid.

How is losing 3 feats and buying a 13 con and spending a point on leveling it better than paladin armor proficiency?

Im missing the advantage of being full cleric.

 

[renau1g]

The only thing I am not crazy about is the mark for the Hybrid pally, it's only Cha damage right? So 4 damage this way, not a huge deterrent to not attack the "squishes", especially against Brutes, Elites, and Solos.

 

[CovertOps]

No matter what you do you will NEVER be all three roles at once. If you are not a striker then strikers will do more damage than you. If you are not a defender (or a heavy armor wearer that spends lots of feats) you won't have the highest AC. If you aren't a Leader you can't heal. The best you can do is be a second best at anything that isn't your primary role and even then you have to give up other options to do that.

Your stated goal at the outset was to be all three. Since there is no way to do what you want, then the question becomes what do you want to focus on so I gave a build that gets you defender and leader, and drops striker.

You can also take the build I listed and pick up MC Fighter and Paragon path into Pit Fighter to pick up +Wis modifier damage to all attacks, but then you have to accept the 4 feats being spent on defense if that's what you want. This option is really closest to what you want, but it will take you many levels to get there.

Hybrid has it's own drawbacks. You have to give up your 2/encounter healing (1/encounter now) in order to pick up Paladin. You also lose Healer's Lore (+Wis mod to all healing) by being hybrid. Even then you only get limited abilities of the Paladin and you are restricted on how you choose your powers. And I'm not clear why you're opposed to having more choices about how to build what you want.

My only point is don't look at your problem with blinders on. There may be other builds that do what you want, but without knowing what you want I can only speculate.

It's all about the options...what's important to you?

 

[Garthanos]

As for paladin armor- i doubt i would ever give that up. its 4 feats for the price of 1, and this build wouldnt even qualify for 2 of those. it really hurts to give up channel divinity though.

You start with chain mail without spending any feats because the armor overlaps between the two. ouch I didnt see that build getting scale and shields.. forgot the shields ... ok never mind ;-(