Modules, it turns out, apparently DO sell

[mudbunny]

I don't know what the future will bring, but I suspect that the Pathfinder core rules came about specifically (1) to keep the rules in print, as you suggest, and (2) to answer the objections about the existing 3.5 system, specifically those brought up by WotC in the 4e marketting push.


RC

I remember on of the Paizo head honchos (Eric??Lisa??) mentioning point #1 specifically. With WotC moving to 4E, the supply of 3.5 DMGs, PHBs and MMs starts becoming very limited, and it gets hard to bring new players in because it gets very difficult for them to find a copy of the rules. PFRPG allows them to have a set of rules that they (Paizo) can print as required.

 

[Wicht]

The one thing I think all us ENWorlders forget is that WotC is a Hollywood studio, and all other game companies are small independent moviemakers. WotC will crank out huge, big-budget opuses because they have larger bottom lines to hope they hit on, so they want/need to appeal to as wide of an audience as possible.

For some reason I read this and the first thing to leap to mind was "Water World."

 

[DEFCON 1]

For some reason I read this and the first thing to leap to mind was "Water World."

Well, one man's Water World is another man's Keep On The Shadowfell. LOL.

 

[firesnakearies]

(Wrote some awesome stuff.)

Can't give you any more XP, but this was another great post.

Steel_Wind is quickly becoming one of my favorite posters on ENWorld.

 

[Wicht]

I'm not allowed to give Steel Wind experience at the moment either or I would for doing that math.

I forget who said it, I think it was Jacobs, but it might have been Mona, but the statement was made, in regards to the delve format iirc, that Paizo wrote their adventures the way they did because they knew that many buyers of modules bought them to read, with the understanding they might never get the chance to play them. I think that statement was spot on and is, I believe, a key reason for Paizo's success.

Sure, one could argue that they were in the right place and the right time, but from another perspective you could see that they were given a room of straw and managed through skill and aplomb to spin it into pure gold. Paizo is up front about being in the adventure business, not the rules business. Sure they have a successfully selling game system but, while I can't speak for others, I know for myself, I bought into the system because I already liked their adventures.

In October of 2007, Erik Mona started a thread asking Paizo fans what rule's set we wanted them to use. I advise people to read it and consider how many of us said we would go where Paizo went. My own answer at the time was

"That being said, if Paizo continues to maintain a quality product with a compelling adventure/story line that I enjoy, it won't matter to me whether you go 4.0 or stay 3.5, 3.75, 3.805 or whatever model you want to use. You could probably swatch [sic] to AD&D and I would dig out my old books and houserule the rules to my satisfaction and go with it."

 

[Bluenose]

I don't know what the future will bring, but I suspect that the Pathfinder core rules came about specifically (1) to keep the rules in print, as you suggest, and (2) to answer the objections about the existing 3.5 system, specifically those brought up by WotC in the 4e marketting push.


RC

What I've always found puzzling about the idea they wanted to keep the rules in print for people who wanted to carry on playing 3.5, is that they went and altered them. In a way that ensures no-one can buy the Pathfinder rules and join an existing 3.5 group. At the very basic level of the PHB, the Pathfinder classes and races have been heavily powered up in some areas, and there have been alterations to the power of spells. Thus, no-one buys Pathfinder to join a 3.5 group - people buy Pathfinder when the rest of the group already uses or intends to use it.

I'm fairly certain, more relevantly to the topic, that WotC and Paizo are working with books that sell around one order of magnitude differently. So there's a difference in the size of the intended market. WotC are intended to be generic, to fit into pretty much any world that doesn't deviate much from the default sort of setting. Almost inevitably that means they don't include a large amount of detailed and specific background material, since such material will be less likely to fit in to individual campaigns. The conclusion I draw from this is that their adventures are usually going to be less interesting to read, since that sort of detailed background is usually lacking. By comparison, Paizo adventures are written for Golarion. They usually include quite a lot of detailed background information, which is usually a good read. If you intend discarding that background to fit it into your own setting, it's interesting but hardly valuable, and leaves in many cases an adventure which doesn't look very different to a WotC one.

 

[Azgulor]

I would be more inclined to think that what WotC wants in their adventures is basics and simplicity. They want to have the modules on the shelves of Borders to be so easy to use and not confusing or in-depth that a kid who is given a PH, DMG, and a module for his birthday can sit down and figure out how to play the game without his head exploding. Because that way, he might continue to play the game and then buy more products.

Let us not forget the fact that practically every one of us on these forums boards who decry the modules produced by WotC are in fact moderate to experienced D&D or RPGers. So obviously, the more basic or bland an adventure, the less useful, interesting, or enticing it will be to us here. Why any of us are surprised by this, is beyond me.

If this is true, then I learned AD&D incorrectly back in the day or today's kids are a lot dumber. The sample adventure depiction in the DMG and intro modules like Keep on the Borderlands allowed me to kick the tires on D&D rules. Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh, the Gauntlet, When a Star Falls, Ravenloft etc. were entertainig for me as a GM to read and for my players to play because they were solid stories.

I'm not saying your premise is incorrect. However, if this is what WotC believes than they are selling new players short. My 9-yr old is playing Pathfinder as his intro to RPGs and he hasn't been unable to keep up with the mechanics. Of course, he's focusing on having fun rather than rules lawyering. He also bugs me regularly to find out when I'm getting a new Pathfinder module (even though I've got 2 in queue already).

I figure by the time he's old enough to want to run his own adventures, he'll know the mechanics pretty well. And I've still got some of those basic set D&D adventures that can be Pathfinderized if necessary.

 

[MortonStromgal]

I think Paizo is very "go with the flow" if it sells keep going with that don't rock the boat where as WOTC is very "buy the new shinny, keep up with the group!". Both are successful buisness models but ultimately WOTC is paddling up river because they need to convince the players that the new thing is better. I think D&D 5e will be where we find out if this stratagy works or not as they (most likely) integrate the line more with Heroscape and keep trying to push digital product while maintaining control of that product.

 

[renau1g]

My 2 year old twin boys are currently reading the Kingmaker AP. They now successfully can identify trolls, dragons (through the ad in the back of the adventure), spider, elf, owlbear (they always say "who-rawr!" as they know what an owl says and the bear individually...), and giants.

Awww...man I can't wait to DM for them in a couple years.

 

[Azgulor]

At the present time I am not DM'ing nor playing in any regular games. (My 4E game ended awhile ago). I do play the occasional pickup one-shot game, about once a month.

Nevertheless, I do regularly pick up the Pathfinder AP books to read. To me it's like reading "Dungeon Magazine" on better quality paper without any ads. I don't think I'll ever use much of the stuff I read.

Wonder how much of the Pathfinder sales (ie. APs, chronicles, companion, etc ...), are to people who just read them without ever playing or using much of the stuff in their own games.

As for the APs, yep I read 'em rather than play 'em. That said, as a GM, they're incredibly useful to me as a GM. The support articles are excellent, the adventure design gives me ideas for doing a better job of designing my own stuff, and all it is useful in making Golarion come alive in my campaign.

That said, I DO use the Pathfinder Chronicles, Companions, and Gamemastery modules.

One day, I hope to run some APs, but right now I lack the right group to do so. Even so, most of my Pathfinder purchases have been APs and I'll be restarting my AP subscription in a month or so.