What Edition/Version for my Mega-Dungeon

Which Edition for a Mega-Dungeon

  • Original D&D/S&W

    Votes: 7 11.5%
  • Basic D&D/LL

    Votes: 15 24.6%
  • Advanced D&D 1E/OSRIC

    Votes: 11 18.0%
  • AD&D 2E

    Votes: 3 4.9%
  • D&D 3.0

    Votes: 1 1.6%
  • D&D 3.5/Pathfinder

    Votes: 13 21.3%
  • Other (Hackmaster, C&C, etc...)

    Votes: 7 11.5%
  • Don't Do It! That way lies madness!

    Votes: 4 6.6%

- How often will PCs die (and not come back)?

That's up to them. Do they pull the chain? ;)

It's D&D. You start at 1. Always.

I'm going to say 10th to 14th, regardless of edition -- before D&D gets stupid hard to run.

"Must spread, yadi yadi yada".

Too late to change from "other" to Pathfinder? With proper DM, those systems (3.5/Path) can be really great, and it seems that you're not the type to fall for their shiny traps. Slight nudge towards Pathfinder mostly because it's somewhat heavier on skills management, but that's quite easily incorporated into 3.5.
 

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Among old D&D editions, the particulars enter the equation more in actual play, I think, than in design.

I would lump all the first four together as "old D&D". (I would say "TSR-D&D", but for the inclusion of "retro-clones".)

Any one of those should serve well. They are all based on the original "dungeon game". All use the same basic 'stats' (monsters often being identical), which tend to be less extensive than in 3e. They forthrightly use a "character class and level" system, so that knowing those factors much follows (but not spell selection). The format is just a lot more compact and less laborious.

That can be a big deal when dealing with big dungeons!

The 1st ed. AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide has a very nice selection of tables to help out when deciding the contents of each room gets burdensome. You can use them with other rules-sets, too. The book is really a classic in the FRP field, worth reading for the questions it raises whether or not one adopts the answers.

The sheer amount of material collected in AD&D -- classes, spells, magic items, monsters, and miscellaneous rules -- has its appeal, too. It's a "best of OD&D", revised and polished, plus more (and still more in the supplements).

When running a dungeon for old D&D, I usually don't care which edition it's for. Heck, I can use a lot of stuff from Empire of the Petal Throne, Metamorphosis Alpha or The Arduin Grimoire without needing to have those rule-books handy.

What trips me up is when I come across something I can't make head or tail of. (For example, I came across "thouls" -- just the name -- on an encounter table. It was some years before I learned that they combined features of trolls, hobgoblins and ghouls.) My impression is that most people are less comfortable than I am in just making up an interpretation that seems reasonable, or substituting something else that makes sense.

Now, there's stuff in the later Mentzer sets (of BECM, of which the recent Dark Dungeons is a retro-clone) that you won't find elsewhere. Second Edition AD&D adds a ton of stuff in the supplements. However, 1st ed. AD&D covers, I think, the vast majority of what has remained perennially popular (and then some).

However, the "retro-clone" scene, with so much available in free-for-the-download PDFs, makes it easier than ever to "mix and match". You've got OSRIC and Monsters of Myth, the S&W monster book, Kellri's Classic Dungeon Designer netbooks, Advanced Edition Companion for Labyrinth Lord ... a cornucopia of restatements or revisions of old material, plus new creations.

A lot of folks use one or another 'basic' set for common game-mechanical procedures, and graft on 'stuff' from other editions (especially AD&D, which has so much) as it takes their interest.

... So, really ...

That brings us back to what you want in actually running a game, and which presentation works best for you as a reference for dungeon design. Those might actually turn out to be different editions.

It's a matter of personal taste. My advice is to download the "retro-clones" and compare them for yourself.

Castles & Crusades and Hackmaster:

C&C is often characterized as having more of a "d20 System feel", which is a plus for some people and a negative for others. It may also "feel" more like 2E AD&D than like other old editions, but YMMV. It has pretty distinctive takes on some character classes, and various details can be surprisingly different. However, it is pretty easy to convert material between C&C and old D&D.

Hackmaster "4e" is a mix of 1E and 2E AD&D, plus the extras and attitude familiar to readers of the Knights of the Dinner Table comic strip. I would call it "baroque", reminiscent of Chivalry & Sorcery and Rolemaster in its rules-heaviness, of Arduin in its more "gonzo" aspects.

I am not so well acquainted with the new Hackmaster. I gather that the mechanics somewhat resemble Aces & Eights. So, while the HM "spirit" is probably unmistakably evident, the direct relationship with D&D has probably been pretty well wiped out.

As to 3e, I find it too cumbersome for a "mega" dungeon in the old style. Even the pacing of sessions seems awkward to me. As well, there may be issues with magic.

One could modify it, I guess, which raises the question of why one has chosen such an extensive and integrated set of rules in the first place. Players already fans of the system are (from my acquaintance) likely to raise the question rather pointedly. Common expectations concerning skill checks, magic, encounter design, and other matters seem to go beyond the books to pretty strongly upheld conventions.

YMMV, of course! My 3e experience is very minimal next to that of others here, and maybe some can speak from experience to the matter of designing and running big dungeons with it.

In any case, I think the difference(s) between 3e and old D&D are likely to be pretty notable. Everyone I have watched go from one to the other, either way, has had to do a bit of "changing mental gears". Considering how much the DM deals with the rules-set, it should not be surprising that people tend very strongly -- more strongly, perhaps, than when acting in a player's capacity -- to prefer either 3e or old D&D to the other.
 
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I voted for S&W as it is a very light and fast-play edition; not too many rules to get in your way, and th flavor is perfect for an old-school classic dungeon crawl.

Alternatively, I'd suggest BFRPG, which, in my experience, is extremely easy to run and even easier to prep for. It plays like old-school D&D but has a few touches of new-school comfort in it such as the separation of races from classes and ascending AC.

Both are extremely easy and quick to make characters for, which is a good thing if you want old-school megadungeon lethality.
 

My 2 c.p. on some issues:

It's D&D. You start at 1. Always.
I will go with Gygax (in the 1st DMG) on this, as concerns old D&D. If you've never worked your way up from 1st level, then you should be allowed (indeed, encouraged) to have that experience of wonder and discovery. It is also good to learn the skills of survival with easily and quickly replaced characters, rather than to go through high-level ones at the rate so easily attained by inexperienced players.

(To the very extent that it takes longer for error to get them killed, learning is delayed while attachment to the persona is increased. The consequences tend, I think, to be unpleasant. At least, I have not seen the same sturm und drang among players who started with the rapid turnover of 1st-level characters.)

Experienced players, however, already know the ropes -- and the usual monsters and spells and magic items like the backs of their hands. The thrills that come with one's first forays into the 'world' of D&D have a lot to do with mystery, with not knowing just what is going on, how this works or what that does.

To maintain the challenge and excitement of the game, it makes sense to me to give old hands higher-level characters if they do not already possess such (that one is willing to introduce to one's own campaign). My own custom is that this should be a one-time, "new to the campaign" courtesy. After that, it is up to the player to cultivate henchmen as "back-up" characters -- or, failing in that, to pay the price by starting PCs at 1st level.

(The latter is not so harsh when it typically means, in the long run, ending up just a level behind one's former peers. In 3e, I think it would probably make a more significant difference.)

Some people just have no interest in starting at less than, say, 4th. That happens to be about where I think I really hit my stride as a DM, too. There's a much wider variety of stuff one can throw at heroes, they can handle more in rapid succession, and most of the time it's literally impossible for one hit from a kobold to lay them low.

Now, there is the complication that people can be very well acquainted indeed with D&D 'tropes' without ever having encountered old (or even any) D&D. The original game has been a seminal influence on computer games, genre fantasy fiction, and other media. Those who have played a newer D&D are especially likely to encounter misleading similarities and confounding differences.

Moreover, it is an important question whether, probably steeped in quite different expectations, they are even interested in playing such relatively weak and fragile characters as 1st-level ones in old D&D. At the very least, it may be meet to give them maximum hit points (as does 3e).

In these cases, there is a lot to learn in terms of the skills to survive and succeed. However, the trappings might not be as novel and engaging as they were to those of us who first encountered D&D in a world not already so much a product of the game.

I'm going to say 10th to 14th, regardless of edition -- before D&D gets stupid hard to run.
In my experience, players have nearly always retired characters from conventional dungeon adventures shortly after attaining "name" level. The higher levels, including the spell levels introduced in Supplement I (cleric 6-7, m-u 7-9), seem to me mainly of utility for deploying opponents strong enough singly to pose a challenge to a party of high-level PCs (which can remain quite formidable despite much attrition of resources). The high teens are literally "godlike", with reference to the books detailing deities!

The game increasingly comes, in many eyes, to be reminiscent more of Marvel Comics super-heroes than of "sword and sorcery" fiction or even mythology.
 
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So I have decided to embark on a mega-dungeon project. I have the background basics figured out and have chosen maps (I don't draw maps; I stole some from a great cartographer on dragonsfoot). But before I get to the business of designing, I need to decide on a system.

Help me E N World, you're my only hope!
It really depends what you want to do with your megadungeon, and what you want it to look like. Some versions of D&D work best with some particular dungeon set-ups and assumptions: AD&D is more about big levels, with a few keyed areas, whereas 3rd ed tends to have smaller sprawling levels, with a much more comprehensive approach to its areas. Just an example.

So my answer really is: it really depends on the type of assumptions you want your complex to be based on, for the best synergy between environment and game system.
 

Odhanan said:
3rd ed tends to have smaller sprawling levels, with a much more comprehensive approach to its areas.

This is one way in which 3e puts me in mind of RuneQuest. RQ seemed more often than D&D associated with relatively intimate settings depicted in finer detail. Even Snakepipe Hollow somehow gave me that impression, and the Big Rubble was more like a wilderness with multiple small dungeons within it.

It's just a lot of work to turn out those "stat blocks"! (Recycling them can go a ways toward easing the burden, as can having a computer program generate monsters and NPCs.) With 4e, you might get more mileage out of them, because even low-level fights take a good while in real time. On the other hand, that in itself is one of the factors in 4e that seem to me to call for radical re-interpretation of the dungeon game. (Again, YMMV!)
 
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I think a lot depends on what "feel" you want for dungeon and which system will keep you the most motivated to put the pieces together.

With that said, I voted Pathfinder.
 

That said, some 3e products convey a sort of "mini-mega" sensibility, perhaps on par with any commercial offering for old D&D this side of Halls of Undermountain. An old-style dungeon module in as many pages would probably cover several times as many encounters. (However, if it were like Temple of Elemental Evil, then those would IMO be too densely packed.)
 

It's D&D. You start at 1. Always.

If this is what you'll require replacements for dead PCs, go with 1e/2e. 3e and later don't tolerate big level differences terribly well. One of the drawbacks of a power curve that grows of the whole level range of the PCs.
 


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