4e: big change in essentials: no more daily powers!

[Holy Bovine]

A "preventative measure" at minimizing nerd rage, from the start.

Impossible. Nerdrage (one word) is self-sustaining and can grow on the most barren of ground. It takes literally nothing to set it off too.

 

[Reynard]

I agree, as long as the Bo9S analogy is not taken too far--it's far too early to actually end the edition. But I do think D&D Essentials will be a major indicator of what the designers will be aiming for with 5E, when the time does come.

I don't really have a horse in this race, but wouldn't the success of the essentials line and its adoption by not only the mythical newcomers to the hobby but also the hardcore supports (meaning buyers) determine whether this new line/direction has any impact on future editions? i mean, it's all well and good for WotC to say that this is the "foundation" for 4E going forward, but if it flops it sure won't be.

 

[Holy Bovine]

And yet, for many people, 2e supplemented -- not replaced -- 1e.

And yet, for many people, 3.5 supplemented -- not replaced -- 3e.

See where I'm going with this?

Really? I haven't met anyone who considered 2E anything but a replacement for 1E, online or in real life. the 3.0-3.5 I can definitely see though - the changes were numerous but small and many things like Prestige Classes and feats could be used from either set easily.

 

[Jack99]

I have to wonder how they are going to support the new design of no dailies. I haven't seen any mention of any essentials product that takes a class beyond 3rd level. I would think that many people who pick up the red box will peg at 3rd level quickly. So does that mean they will have to switch to having dailies?

Not sure if this was answered, but ONLY the Red Box is limited to a .. well limited number of levels. The other books cover the whole 1-30 range.

That laughter you hear is the 3.5 community.

When attempting to be funny, you should account for slow and/or tired people. Why should the 3.5 community be laughing?

Internet IS evil.

Wizz guys made a BIG MISTAKE to announce somethng like that, without clear exemples to avoid stupid rumors...

a exemple is better than a thousand promisses.. is like a picture-book to dumb people.

and yet.. until something is out. 4ed is on check. I guess Psionic Power book will be the first to fell that mess...

Previews are coming before Psionic Power is released. Besides, why would PP feel anything? I think you should re-read what Essentials are about.

 

[Raven Crowking]

This thread is an endless fountain of comedy, or at least an endless fountain of people reading their own prejudices into things.

Welcome to the InterWeb.

I think you'll find both of those attitudes rather rare, overall.

You might have found them so; I did not.

No. 3.5 class writeups were explicitly designed to replace 3e classes. Essentials class writeups are explicitly designed to live alongside the existing classes.

Po-tay-to, po-tah-to.

The Player's Option class writeups were explicitly designed to live alongside the existing classes. In fact, you could recreate the existing classes using the Player's Option materials.

And yet, still, considered by many to be 2.5.

I don't know if this qualifes as 4.5 or not (comparing this to the change from 3.0 to 3.5), but it *is* a relaunch of sorts after only 2 years.

Yup.

I agree, as long as the Bo9S analogy is not taken too far--it's far too early to actually end the edition. But I do think D&D Essentials will be a major indicator of what the designers will be aiming for with 5E, when the time does come.

Whether or not it is too early depends entirely on one's point of view. Myself, I look forward to discussing 5e with the 4e grognards. I also look forward to how 5e will "fix" some "problems" of 4e, and how some people who claim those problems don't exist now will be saying that they are obvious and everyone knew about them after 5e is here.

Or, as I said above, "Welcome to the InterWeb."



Also, as Reynard points out, this is a foray at least in part to determine how well certain ideas sell. If you like those ideas, now is the time to vote with your wallet. Buy often, and buy lots.

Or not, if you would rather D&D not be taken down this particular road.


RC

 

[billd91]

Really? I haven't met anyone who considered 2E anything but a replacement for 1E, online or in real life. the 3.0-3.5 I can definitely see though - the changes were numerous but small and many things like Prestige Classes and feats could be used from either set easily.

For at least one campaign, we played with 1e rules but with the 2e non-weapon proficiencies. The rules were highly compatible.

I believe I've seen more people who did things like that than people who supplemented 3.0 with 3.5. Once you had the 3.5 PH in hand, it was just easier to switch to it completely. That said, I have known some people who played with their 3.0 books but took 3.5 stuff like the ranger and bard from the SRD online.

 

[Peraion Graufalke]

I wonder how many happy and satisfied 4E fans are grumbling about Essentials?

Do 4e fans who went from "I can skip Essentials, it doesn't seem interesting" to "Whoa, this sounds awesome, I gotta buy this!" count?
Because then I'm grumbling.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

My initial reactions:

- Wizards is doing this at least in part to appease the segment of the D&D market that truly hates the notion of Fighters with daily powers
- No matter what their intentions, they are going to infuriate a large segment of their player base anyway.
- I expect there will be at least a few flame wars from people who abandoned 4e saying this proves all their claims about WoTC being evil / stupid / wrong having arguments with people who accept that the essentials line is not going to entirely abandon the preexisting material.
- I suspect that these changes will not make existing PHB1 classes obsolete in the same way that the iPhone 4 won't make the iPhone 3 obsolete; While not like going from PS2 to PS3, it is still intended as an improvement.

I will elaborate on that last point. I think that Wizards means it when they say that this is not meant to be a "4.5 edition". The blowback on 3.5 added to the release of 4th edition caused them enough headaches that they do not want that problem. However, I do think that they really want to appease the segment of the D&D market that wants more differentiation in class mechanics (they make a point of saying that directly in the press release).

Also consider that Wizards now has a great deal more data about how the game is used in play, and what works, and what does not work. It is certain that the designers have a number of ideas on how they might improve things. Finally, consider what happens if Wizards comes out with an entirely new Martial Defender class that is very similar to a fighter, but is called something else. You then end up with mass accusations of power creep.

Coming out with a new product while moving to make sure the existing customers are reassured that they are not being taken for a ride is probably the best option from where they sit. We will see how this plays out.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Jack99]

Personally, I can't see how you can call it a new edition if the rules stay the same and the new classes we get via the Essentials are compatible with those rules. But hey, that's just me, I guess.

The whole debate about the Essentials line seems to have degenerated into whether it is a "4.5" or simply more options. I find that incredibly sad, especially since most of those yelling "new edition, ha ha" are people who do not care for, nor play 4e.

Instead, we should be talking about what kind of changes can be expected. What are we hoping for? Personally, I would love to see a 4e-fied old school caster, meaning one with only dailies (well, I wouldn't mind if he had some at-wills too), or a fighter with only at-wills.

I am also quite curious about how they will expand on the races. This was something that was in the original plans, but it seemed to fade out at some point and be limited to racial feats and a few racial paragon paths - both of which I like, but it was not the "your race will make a huge difference" mantra we heard during the last days of 3.5.

Cheers

 

[Raven Crowking]

Have you considered that, rather than "New edition, ha ha" this might be a rather hopeful "New edition, woo hoo!"?