A subtle reminder from wizards.(or not so subtle)

The Essentials consist of 10 key products that will form the baseline experience for the roleplaying game moving forward.
The Essentials are NOT a new game or a new edition.
The Essentials are NOT replacing the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, or Monster Manual.
The Essentials are providing a better framework and starting point for new players while also providing new options for existing players to add to their games.
The Essentials products work with all other Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying game products, from Player’s Handbook to new products releasing in 2011 and beyond—just like all other D&D products we release.

Essentials might not be replacing the PHB but if they do not continue in printing at least the original printings of the PHB it will be phased out.

Those of us who already have the books will not be affected but new players will only have Essentials. That is IF they stop printing the core books. So eventually Essentials type products will be the only thing out there. That means they will have to eventually reprint the core books in a new form or put out 5th edition.
 

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The Essential 10-word answer:
Who. Cares. As. Long. As. You. Are. Still. Having. Fun. :erm:

So then why are you even commenting in this thread? If you really believe what you're preaching... go practice it... Meanwhile I'll keep posting my opinion in a thread that is clearly about what WotC have stated as far as essentials. I mean if I wasn't interested in discussing it... well I probably wouldn't post in it to tell everyone I didn't care about it... and they shouldn't either.
 

Working off memory, so most likely paraphrased:
"Well, John, if you repeat something often enough, people will come to believe it."
"Come on now, people aren't that stupid."
"Well, John, if you repeat something often enough, people will come to believe it."
"I really don't think that's possible."
"Well, John, if you repeat something often enough, people will come to believe it."
"That can't be right, can it?"
"Well, John, if you repeat something often enough, people will come to believe it."
"Are you sure?"
"Well, John, if you repeat something often enough, people will come to believe it."
"You know, I think I'm starting to believe that."
- some obscure, satirical British TV show involving puppets​

So you're saying that they're using a dishonest tactic. Fabulous.

Why would you want to use the absolutely terrible, fundamentally and mechanically flawed solos of the original MM?

Something really bothers me about this. Weren't they supposed to have broken down the math of the game and then reconstructed it so that none of this would have been an issue? Is it still guesswork after all?
 



Something really bothers me about this. Weren't they supposed to have broken down the math of the game and then reconstructed it so that none of this would have been an issue? Is it still guesswork after all?
Well Aegeri is using something called 'hyperbole'. Overexagerating to create an effect. MMI Solos are not absolutely terrible and fundamentally flawed at a base level. They might be for his game, because his game has players which might be overpowered or underpowered and too fast or too slow to fight against a MMI Solo monster and not produce a fun and exciting result for their game. But for everyone else besides Aegeri... there's no guarantee that what he claims is correct in the slightest. And the fact that Solos in MMI were playtested quite a while and said playtesters did not have nearly the same problems or issues with them (since, you know, after all, the game did get released!), tells us that what Aegeri says is not an empirical fact.

That being said... now that we've had two years of worldwide playtesting, and bucketloads of additional supplements to expand the game in ways that those original designers of the first MM's Solos could not think of (since many of those original designers are no longer current designers on the game)... is it surprising that some of the original stuff is not as good at producing fun and exciting results for some people as the newer stuff that's been released? Not at all. But that also doesn't change the fact that for many people, the stuff in MMI is still quite effective, useful, and dare we say it, fun for those people. Despite what some other people might claim.
 
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It's mostly that MM3 monsters have a combination of really good power design and really good damage. So they are more fun and interesting to fight, while MM1 creatures have just been left far too far behind in the past power wise. Redoing MM1 creatures usually requires updating both their powers and damage expressions.

Well Aegeri is using something called 'hyperbole'. Overexagerating to create an effect.

Actually no I'm not. Have you seen how many builds utterly destroy Orcus easily? Actually, Orcus isn't even a threat to any decent level 30 party that is remotely competently put together. I've actually ran epic solos like Orcus and they are nowhere near as effective as those that came later, like Demogorgon or Lolth.

MMI Solos are not absolutely terrible and fundamentally flawed at a base level.
Yes they are. They have:

1) Too much HP, making them very grindy and this is combined with their enhanced defenses enhancing the "grindy" feeling
2) Too little damage, so they cannot even generally threaten PCs anyway - especially because they often have terrible action economy to face a party of 5 players.
3) Brutes are an absolute joke, because they'll spend all day stunned/dominated and dazed due to utterly miserable defenses and their attack accuracy isn't sufficient (something MM3 fixed nicely).

They might be for his game, because his game has players which might be overpowered or underpowered and too fast or too slow to fight against a MMI Solo monster and not produce a fun and exciting result for their game.
MM1 solos are routinely described as being boring grind fests, it's a common complaint and its why Wizards changed solo monsters HP (20% less) and defenses. This isn't just "My game" this is a general complaint that resulted in the fundamental maths as to how solos are designed. If this was just "my game" why were they completely altered by MM2? Wizards doesn't just pay attention to what I say, so it can't just have been me that noticed solos had too many HP, not enough damage and weren't capable of challenging a party of five PCs (not enough actions usually, or poor action economy).

Also considering that I can get lots of good battles out of solos I make myself, MM2 and MM3 solos - I feel the problem is easily with one particular kind of solo. Those that the games maths have outdated considerably. I currently run 3 games and I can't recall the last "boring" solo I ran that wasn't from the MM.

And the fact that Solos in MMI were playtested quite a while and said playtesters did not have nearly the same problems or issues with them (since, you know, after all, the game did get released!), tells us that what Aegeri says is not an empirical fact.
You seemed to have missed where the playtesters or Wizards allowed things to go to print that were immensely broken out of the bat like Cascade of Blades that was errata'ed within one week IIRC - meaning that I'm not exactly enamored with this argument. The fact is that solos have been the discussion of numerous threads since 4E has been released. The most common complaints are that they are boring, grindy and unable to break out of repeated daze, stun and similar lockdowns. MM2 addressed this and then MM3 has really helped fix a lot of other issues. The lockdown issue is still there, but it's nowhere near as bad as on MM1 creatures.

That being said... now that we've had two years of worldwide playtesting, and bucketloads of additional supplements to expand the game in ways that those original designers of the first MM's Solos could not think of... is it surprising that some of the original stuff is not as good at producing fun and exciting results for some people as the newer stuff that's been released?
I mean, it's not like Wizards have changed

1) Damage
2) Hit points
3) Defenses
4) Number of powers
5) Increased damage while bloodied

Since the release of the original monster manual to make solos more competitive. Wait, actually they did change all of those and for the better in every case.

But for everyone else besides Aegeri... there's no guarantee that what he claims is correct in the slightest.
I pulled this out of your first paragraph to respond to it last.

Here's a question for you: If I am not right about this, why was the maths changed dramatically?

Noting that monster manual creatures are now two iterations of dramatically changed maths behind. They are also behind on power design compared to MM2 and MM3 creatures. They are behind the curve in every manner compared to "current" solos. If you honestly think that MM solos are fine, then explain why the purple worm is a good solo or for that matter, the Dracolich. Either one is a contender for absolute worst monster in all of 4th edition.
 
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Thanks for putting all our minds at ease. I feel so much better knowing this.

It extra exciting since nothing is being replaced I can look forward to the monster vault containing ALL NEW MONSTERS.

Hmm. What WILL they fill that with. What iconic monsters that newbies need to learn about are left to include that are NOT rewrites of monsters from previous products.

If we were to see things such as kobolds, goblins, and red dragons how are we NOT supposed to treat that as a replacement for the monster manual again?

Because the Goblin Sneak will have a different stat-block than the Goblin Blackblade. Which means new players can buy it and have iconic monsters to run, and current players can buy it and have new options to use.

Rather than it coming out with outright rewrites of the monster stat blocks in the MM1, which would invalidate the existing books for current players and force them to buy the new content to stay up to date.

Instead, they can use it to expand their collection, or stick with what they already have. Seems fair to me.

Now, that's just my theory, of course, and I'm honestly not sure how they'll handle Dragons - but just like the MM2 didn't replace the MM1 because it had a Bugbear Wardancer in it (and the MM1 had a Bugbear Strangler), I see plenty of room for them to include versions of monsters that are both new and iconic.
 

Yes they are. They have:

1) Too much HP, making them very grindy and this is combined with their enhanced defenses enhancing the "grindy" feeling
2) Too little damage, so they cannot even generally threaten PCs anyway - especially because they often have terrible action economy to face a party of 5 players.
3) Brutes are an absolute joke, because they'll spend all day stunned/dominated and dazed due to utterly miserable defenses and their attack accuracy isn't sufficient (something MM3 fixed nicely).


You know what this tells me?

1. They expected people to latch on to glass cannon strikers even more than they did.

2. They also wanted some monsters to be tough to gut in two rounds (including meat shield baddies)

A lot of MM1 baddies work great, yes even the HP sacks. In a group I run the players all tried to build damage monkeys. Those HP sacks meant the artillery could make their lives miserable and they couldn't just chew through encounters in no time flat. They then built more defensive, so I changed monsters to show they couldn't just go that route either. I boost damage or defenses as needed for the group on the table.
 

snip

This latest version of the rules, v.3.5, is compatible with 3rd edition D&D, but incorporates revisions and updates based on player feedback.

snip

i read "compatible and incorporates revisions" different from "fully compatible" differently than you...

i still see a difference between offering a new build and completely changing the old one...
i see a difference between something i can completely ignore/ban (like skills and powers in ADnD) and something that changes my build completely (in the way, 3.5 changed the ranger)

If you don´t see a difference, so be it...

oh, and to the last part of your post which i won´t cite here:

i never said you should believe blindly, but you are paranoid and overreacting and you are one of those people who make bill despair... i would just wait and see, and for my part, i hope the PHB fighter build will still be supported, and i hope we get more kits, because they sound fun.
 
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