Are Casters 'still' way better than noncasters after level 6?

[StreamOfTheSky]

I've heard it said that if you start having that many encounters the melee types can't keep up with healing to last long enough for it to matter if the caster can't go nova. Thoughts on that?

Wands of Cure Light Wounds are 750 gp each, and heal a total of 50d8 +50 (average of 275) hp per wand.

Clerics have channel positive energy, Paladins have that and lay on hands, multiple uses per day for both. Monks, Rogues, and Barbarians all have (absolutely godawful, don't take them / waste ki points on them unless you're desperate for it) options to self-heal.

 

[Kaisoku]

Nice response Kaisoku.

So the disparity is still there, but it's less of a problem than it used to be?

You mentioned the way skills work now. Everyone gets that though, so casters get the extra skills as well.

Is the main problem that casters have too many options, or that casters options are too powerful?

For anyone who has tried, how would you buff melee classes or weaken casters to bring them to be more in line, and is how necessary is it?

I'm not sure I'd say that it was too big of a problem before either, since the interdependency in actual gameplay kind of brought the stuff wizards could do in theory, down to a reasonable level.
Most games, for instance, didn't allow wizards to completely research and prepare his way to a perfect spell list. Much of the time he "could" have had the answer, but often had to resort to a lesser option that he did prepare.

So while the skill changes did benefit everyone, the casters already had a lot of versatility. If have the capacity to handle most situations already, having a little more in the way of skills doesn't change things much.
The Fighter though, he went from being good at only one aspect (and even then, some classes could still catch up), to becoming the best at that aspect and not being penalized for branching out.

I think that in Pathfinder, with the new feat choices and high level abilities, non-casters aren't hurting for "powerful" options.
With the skill changes and now the APG's archetypes, there's a lot more options as well.

What would I do to bring more versatility to the table for non-casters? Probably introduce a mechanic for being able to swap normally permanent options.

Spells are the ultimate in versatility. Even those with limited spell lists can still choose to pick up scrolls or wands and just use them without fail.
Feats and skills are, for the most part, pretty static. Other than a few, limited, retraining options, you are pretty much stuck with what you got.

If one could choose even a limited number of feats or skill ranks even on a daily basis, it would bring non-casters to a level of versatility that spells give casters.

I dunno how to do this exactly, though. My suggestion before in various fighter change threads discussed back in Pathfinder Beta days, was to let the fighter have a larger list of feats chosen, but then he only gets to have a certain number used per day.
The fluff being he's training in all these things, so he kind of "half" knows them, but only the ones he trains recently (in the morning, etc) will be known enough to give a bonus.

- Aren't you good at tripping? I saw you trip three guys in one fight just a couple days ago.
- Yeah, well I'm a bit rusty. Let me practice a bit and I'll be good to go.

Possibly the easiest solution would be something with Action/Hero/Story Points. You could make them more tied to the character than the player. Have them refresh with rest, instead of levels or sessions, and let them use one to get the benefits of a feat or ranks in a skill temporarily, or swap out one choice for another on the fly.
Then, simply give more points per day to non-casters vs casters.

 

[pawsplay]

I've seen ample evidence that a Pf paladin or fighter can bring da noize. Ok, sure, they can't teleport or enchant everyone's weapons and so forth, but that's kind of the point. In my opinion, the greater availability of feats, plus some nice options like Vital Strike and Step Up put martial characters on more equal footing well into the teens. At some point you get to, "I have Wish and you don't," but even then, the fighter can be highly respected for having having zillions of hit points, not dying, and being able, through feats or equipment, to defeat the DR of just about anything.

 

[Samurai]

In our group, by far the biggest threat is the Fighter/Barbarian. He could literally kill almost any other party member in a single round, 2 at most. His attacks routinely do about 25-30 points of damage, and his bonuses to hit are so high he almost never misses. The other characters are just starting to come into their own... the Sorcerer's fireballs can match the raw damage of the Fighter, but opponents are fairly likely to save, cutting it in half (or 0 with a feat). She's good at mopping up the cannon fodder though. The Monk/Cleric is beginning to get better, and last session had some standout moments once he was Enlarged and Bull's Strengthened. Our Ranger/Cleric probably comes in 3rd in damage dealing, and the Bard trails in last place, but his singing helps everyone else hit more reliably.

Still, the Fighter/Barb is so dominating in combat that I see more comments about the martial death machines being too good, not too weak...

 

[Psychotic Jim]

I've seen ample evidence that a Pf paladin or fighter can bring da noize. Ok, sure, they can't teleport or enchant everyone's weapons and so forth, but that's kind of the point. In my opinion, the greater availability of feats, plus some nice options like Vital Strike and Step Up put martial characters on more equal footing well into the teens. At some point you get to, "I have Wish and you don't," but even then, the fighter can be highly respected for having having zillions of hit points, not dying, and being able, through feats or equipment, to defeat the DR of just about anything.

On not being able to enchant weapons, that is no longer the case anymore, thanks to the Master Craftsman feat.

 

[Kaiyanwang]

Some prblmatic spell has been tuned down, noncasters had nice boosts, and the act of spellcasting itself has became more dangerous.

Overall, even differences remain, the game improved significantly in this sense.

This was not such a big deal before, and now the situation is even better. Of course, there are more balanced games: but I enjoy my dangerous orcs (kobold? RAT?) at level 1, and my gate or 270 damages crit at level 20. the same way, I prefer different classes with different mechanics.

There are few things in the APG that make me concerned, but only time will tell.

 

[Dark Mistress]

Others have covered the whys pretty well already. I agree with what some of the others have said. It is still there to a point but it is a lot less sever than before. It can only be a problem IMHO if the GM lets the group rest fully after every couple of fights.

 

[dagger]

Its also more difficult to cast spells in combat now.... 15 + 2 x Spell level..





Also no Concentration skill to beef up.

 

[Banshee16]

In our group, by far the biggest threat is the Fighter/Barbarian. He could literally kill almost any other party member in a single round, 2 at most. His attacks routinely do about 25-30 points of damage, and his bonuses to hit are so high he almost never misses. The other characters are just starting to come into their own... the Sorcerer's fireballs can match the raw damage of the Fighter, but opponents are fairly likely to save, cutting it in half (or 0 with a feat). She's good at mopping up the cannon fodder though. The Monk/Cleric is beginning to get better, and last session had some standout moments once he was Enlarged and Bull's Strengthened. Our Ranger/Cleric probably comes in 3rd in damage dealing, and the Bard trails in last place, but his singing helps everyone else hit more reliably.

Still, the Fighter/Barb is so dominating in combat that I see more comments about the martial death machines being too good, not too weak...

That was my experience even in 3.0 and 3.5. We had a few instances where the party fighter or barbarian was dominated by an opponent, and sent against the PCs, and he would hit so reliably against the others, even against the spellcasters, that they were spending all their actions drinking healing potions, retreating etc. just to keep from getting sent into negatives, that they weren't able to effectively stop him. When he's got a greataxe, and improved critical, well, his normal damage is high enough....but with one good hit, he was able to demolish the part wizard and ranger/sorcerer.

As others have said....if the paradigm of the game is *not* such that the DM is allowing the whole "unleash the wizard's entire arsenal in one battle, then sleep, rinse, repeat", the disparity between the classes went away. As a DM, I tend to use random encounters, and play the opponents smart. The PCs didn't have a chance to stop and rest to regain their spells...meaning the wizards and sorcerers had to be choosy about what they used, when.

"You're on a quest to rescue the princess who the archvillain is going to feed to the dragon? And you encountered the archvillain's sidekick, and took him out by having the wizard go nova? Sure, you can rest. When you get to the dragon's lair, he's swinging the princess' gown around his finger, and lets out a loud burb of satisfaction, commenting on the nice snack he just enjoyed. He's a dragon. You think he's going to wait 8 hours to eat her, just because you want to rest?"

"So, you defeat the knights, in the main hallway, but your wizard is low on spells, so you retreat to the cloakroom you cleared out earlier tonight, bar the door, and rest for 8 hours? Great. While the fighter is on watch, the knights search the building, and grow suspicious of the cloakroom with the door locked from the inside. The castle's resident wizard, uses clairvoyance, figures out you're there, uses invisiblity, teleports into the room, drops a delayed blast fireball while your fighter starts screaming the alarm.....and then dimension doors away." Or maybe he dominates the fighter, and commands him to slay the other PCs. He's likely to get a coup de grace against at least one of them, before the other PCs figure out what's going on, and neutralize him.

With all the talk about the Lawful Stupid alignment, the whole resting paradigm seems to insist that the whole world is on standby while the PCs are resting. IMO, it's just not realistic, and makes the game kind of boring. Villains don't sit on their duffs twiddling their thumbs waiting for the local paladin to come knocking and cut their heads off.

Banshee

 

[Walking Dad]

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The biggest benefits seems to be the ever renewing 0-level spells. Being able to rely consistantly on those spells has led to the sorcerer holding back on the big damage spells and enchantments until needed and has reduced the need to constantly keep seeking resting points.
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That is the reason. At will o level spells can keep them from wanting to rest after each encounter. He would be stronger if he could convince the other characters to rest after each fight.

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I've heard it said that if you start having that many encounters the melee types can't keep up with healing to last long enough for it to matter if the caster can't go nova. Thoughts on that?

That is the beauty of channel energy: More between-combats healing. It could become a problem in a party with few non-cleric healers. And without a CLW wand...

One of the complaints was that wizards (and to some extent other casters) could load up on lots of cheap low level scrolls of utility spells and handle most non-combat situations.

The wizard as batman concept.

Any reason to think that would no longer be a plausible case under Pathfinder?

Yes overpowered versus a skill monkey. Let the rogue shine in combat, too! This will lessen complains from this side.

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... The tiers are still there (Wizards are still batman), but playing a straight classed Fighter to level 20 no longer feels like playing a chump.
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But the low will save is still terrible. Giving them two good progressions wouldn't be gamebreaking.

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the Sorcerer's fireballs can match the raw damage of the Fighter, but opponents are fairly likely to save, cutting it in half (or 0 with a feat).
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Evocation specialist casters were never the problem in 3.5...