Class Acts: Sorcerer - "The Shivs of Sorcery"

[Rel]

Any word on when this gets added to the CB?

 

[Shroomy]

Any word on when this gets added to the CB?

Content from this month's magazines should be in the October 5th update.

 

[Mengu]

Any word on when this gets added to the CB?

Considering latest Dragon in CB is 388, 390 should be in the October update.

Edit: Ninja'ed...

 

[rangda]

Marshall, you're forgetting that brutal 1 (in the case of a kukri) doesn't make you treat 1s and 2s (which would bump the damage just a bit). By allowing a reroll of all 1s, it gives you a greater chance of rolling max. damage. And high crit (in the case of a katar) shines when you have to roll up to nine d20s (there are many ways of getting an increased threat range, for that matter).

Brutal 1, admittedly is nice, but high crit is much less so with a d6 based weapon. Superior Implement would give you 1d10 high crit instead which is significantly more damage when you start looking at paragon/epic.

Plus, Force Daggers is close (no opportunity attacks like ranged or area), friendly (targets enemies only) and is a blast *weapon* attack.

I don't necessarily want to get into the discussion of "this power is better than that power" but close/melee vs. ranged/area isn't better or worse, it's different. You're thinking it's better because you want to get stuck in, for a build that wants to work at range it's horrible because it has to get far too close to the monsters. Sorc. as a class tends towards ranged because pumping AC is hard, so making it melee while potentially interesting is against the grain.

That means that everything you can pile on to increase weapon attacks is valid: Two-Weapon Fighting (and its tree), Weapon Focus/Expertise, powers and items that let you target Reflex instead of AC, etc.

2WF line works with implement powers, WF works with dagger implement powers (and even if it didn't there is a corresponding feat). Just as you get excited at piling on the melee feats there are a set of damage feats which are implement based that you lose. I'm to lazy to sit down and do a hard analysis, but I suspect you're slightly worse on the melee path than the implement path with a sorc.

Add to that Ensorcelled Blade, which can be used as a melee basic attack (and as such, as an opportunity attack, which can be greatly enhanced by the above feats and effects).

And Lightning Cuts, which is a minor action weapon attack that targets Reflex!

These powers, from an absolute power perspective, are the creme of the crop in the article. The potential for a MBA is nice and opens up some build options even if you don't use the rest of the article. And the ability to get an attack as a minor cannot be underestimated, even if it's single target.

I think one of the other posters hit it in that these powers really start to flesh out a new sorc. build (less powerful than the ranged build IMO and I'll get to why in a bit). There's not quite enough here but it's a start. The problem is that it's cool for making a new build but not so cool for grafting onto most existing sorcerers (excepting dragonborn dragon magic types).

IMO the power of the sorcerer is in the static damage bonus. The sorcerer is the only striker in the game that can apply it's striker dice to multiple targets and multiple attacks / round (this breaks some powers btw, such as the pre-nerfed Increase the Tempo). So the road for minimaxing a sorcerer is multi-target spells; you want every cookie in the game that adds to your damage bonus and you want to hit as many targets / round as possible to maximize the amount of damage you're handing out. If you go down the single target road, the barbarians and ranges of the world will always out-damage you (they are working on d12 high crit for their [w] and your stuck on smaller dice and often smaller numbers of them). Thus I take a dim view of any single target sorcerer powers unless you get a good cookie to go along with it (like, say, attack as a minor).

I think the reaction you'll get from this article depends greatly on the baggage the person reading it carried in. If someone was looking for cool new toys for their existing char, they will be disappointed. If someone was looking for new ways to minimax their char and crank up the absurd DPR numbers they will be disappointed. If someone was looking for a way to try to build a hybrid sorc/barb or somesuch they will think it's great.

 

[Klaus]

That's a very insightful analysis, rangda.

The article does offer something for existing sorcerers in the feats that build on Sorcerous Blade Channeling. Admitedly, it's a minor part of the article, but that would be true if it was an article aimed just at, say, storm sorcerers.

 

[Marshall]

That's a very insightful analysis, rangda.

The article does offer something for existing sorcerers in the feats that build on Sorcerous Blade Channeling. Admittedly, it's a minor part of the article, but that would be true if it was an article aimed just at, say, storm sorcerers.

Except SBC IS the Sorcerers option for melee attacks, creating powers to support SBC is the tail chasing the dog.
You'd get the same response for an article that tried to give the Barbarian ranged powers. The ideas are OK, but the SOR is the wrong class. Like I said before, this is a class acts Swordmage thats mislabled.

 

[Klaus]

Except SBC IS the Sorcerers option for melee attacks, creating powers to support SBC is the tail chasing the dog.
You'd get the same response for an article that tried to give the Barbarian ranged powers. The ideas are OK, but the SOR is the wrong class. Like I said before, this is a class acts Swordmage thats mislabled.

What's the problem with giving the Barbarian some ranged powers? The warlord got some (first heavy thrown, then archer). You have to push the envelope a bit.

 

[rangda]

The ideas are OK, but the SOR is the wrong class. Like I said before, this is a class acts Swordmage thats mislabled.

I agree, that was also the impression I got when I read the article.

Sorcerer is really the only D&D class I'm interested in enough to play, and if I was going to go down the road of building a 'melee' sorcerer it would either be dragon magic cold based or wild magic using wild spellfury & the two white lotus riposte feats. But in either of those cases I wouldn't be doing melee I'd be doing close burst/blast (using my mantra of always trying to hit as many targets as possible to maximize the static bonus being applied).

Honestly the biggest problem with the sorcerer is the lack of differentiation between the attack powers. When your static bonus is +35 (or higher) the difference between 1d4+35 & 2d8+35 & 3d8+35 (to compare a green to a red to a black) just isn't all that much. I would LOVE to see a dragon article with encounter/daily powers that use some different mechanics and open up some interesting options, as honestly the damage dice for a paragon+ sorcerer don't mean all that much.

Powers like Spark Form, for example, are great because they provide a different way of handing out the striker damage and open up some tactical choices. To me Spark Form is much more interesting say Chaos Storm, which compaerd to Blazing Starfall you get a very minor cookie (move people around in the 3x3 area) and 7+bonus damage vs. 2.5+bonus damge.

 

[A.J.gibson]

What's the problem with giving the Barbarian some ranged powers? The warlord got some (first heavy thrown, then archer). You have to push the envelope a bit.

Hi Klaus. I just want to take a moment and try to clarify what's going on; I've seen a lot of very positive and some very negative comments about your article in several places. It's really not fair.

Basically, your article is like a gourmet gelato - really good stuff - but for the sorcerer, it's the middle of winter.

To answer your question above; there is absolutely nothing wrong with giving the barbarian ranged attacks. The problem is your article assumes the barbarian already has ranged attacks. For people playing a ranged-attack barbarian, this is a godsend, but for most of us, it's not very useful.

When I read your article, I was intrigued, but also bothered by the missed opportunities. A weapon-using sorcerer is a cool idea, but you've fixated on daggers. For example: why can't Master of Knives grant you the ability to use any light blade as a weapon and implement in place of a dagger? This would open up many possibilities for swashbuckling sorcerers, and make multi-classing or hybriding into bard and swordmage more interesting. I know the focus of your article was roguish-sorcerers, but there is no harm in making the individual components a little broader.

 

[A.J.gibson]

Honestly the biggest problem with the sorcerer is the lack of differentiation between the attack powers. When your static bonus is +35 (or higher) the difference between 1d4+35 & 2d8+35 & 3d8+35 (to compare a green to a red to a black) just isn't all that much. I would LOVE to see a dragon article with encounter/daily powers that use some different mechanics and open up some interesting options, as honestly the damage dice for a paragon+ sorcerer don't mean all that much.

A few days ago, I submitted a proposal to Dragon to write exactly that article, with some new feats to support the different playstyles of the different types and some new powers with some variant effects beyond 'blast 3'. I'm hoping to get a rejection any day now; wish me luck!!!