D&D 4E Essential 4e: Heroes of the Forgotten Lands

[keterys]

Stinking Cloud is probably more complex than I'd expect Essentials to do. But, if you assume a +7 damage bonus (+2 Enh, +5 stat), SC on say 3 targets does 12.5 * 3 * .5 (half hit), 12.5 * 3 (autohit at start of their turn), plus say three more auto-hits during the combat 12.5 * 3 = (12.5 * 7.5) = 93.75

Fireball hitting 5 enemies instead from its extra burst at 21 avg damage would be 21 * 5 * .75 (half hit = .5, half on miss = .25) = 78.8 damage, but twice as fast without requiring a bunch of minor and move actions to make it work.

At which point you start debating if blocks LOS on Stinking Cloud is helpful or harmful for your party (some parties hate it, some love it).

That and the fact that stinking cloud gets twice the benefit from any bonus to damage rolls that fireball does

 

[nookiemonster]

The most important advantage that Stinking Cloud has over Fireball is that it's a golden opportunity to make a stupid fart joke while one of the other players is drinking soda. Sure, you'll get a lot of Dr. Pepper everywhere, and the DM will probably declare that the boogers that your buddy sneezed onto your mini are green slimes, but it's still worth it.

Edit: More seriously, Fireball covers a much larger area than Stinking Cloud (I will not abbreviate it as SCloud, as someone will no doubt pronounce that as "asscloud" and one fart joke is quite enough for my first post), FB covers 49 squares and the Cloud covers only 25, about half the area. SCloud (sorry) also does less damage. Assuming +5 damage and Brutal 1, that is 21 damage on a hit, or 10 on a miss, from Fireball. There's also the possibility of doing a critical hit, which would be 29 + any extra damage if using a magic implement (+2d6 or more at that level?). SCloud will do 5.5 + Int mod damage, plus whatever from the implement. (SCloud may not be an evocation, so we don't know if it gets brutal or not. Seems more like a conjuration to me.) And if you move it over the monsters, it will block LOS... which gives the monsters TOTAL CONCEALMENT, and they can make stealth checks to hide. So you may not even know where the damn monsters are. Many monsters, including undead and constructs, are either resistant or immune to poison, more so than to fire, another strike against the Cloud. So I don't think the case against Fireball is that clear cut.

 

[vaultdweller]

Fireball is perhaps one of the most useless powers published in 4e, and certainly one oft he most useless Wizard dailies.

People are discussing the larger burst size of the Fireball as if it's a great bonus? Seriously? The larger burst size might be a boon, in the entirely imaginary world where the following points are true:
1) It actually enables you to hit significantly more enemies
2) You don't also end up hitting more allies, and
3) Doing a small amount of damage to a large number of enemies is a remotely sound tactical decision

All three of those points are highly questionable.

The fact is that Fireball does not in any way help the party focus fire, it has extremely party-unfriendly targeting, and it offers absolutely zero control. It is a terrible power in it's current state, and an extra d6 is not going to change that.

 

[ravenheart]

I just had an idea regarding Fireball while I was sitting on the toilet (sorry, no fart jokes this time...or wait?). What if Fireball had an effect line like this (or something similar):

Effect: The target must choose to be knocked prone or be the subject of a secondary attack.
​

Secondary attack: Int vs. Fort
Hit: The target is knocked prone and takes ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends).
​

Do you think it could give Fireball the 'oomph' it appears to be lacking?

 

[Mengu]

Fireball hitting 5 enemies instead from its extra burst at 21 avg damage would be 21 * 5 * .75 (half hit = .5, half on miss = .25) = 78.8 damage, but twice as fast without requiring a bunch of minor and move actions to make it work.

In the hands of an initiative optimized wizard, fireball in a first round with an action point softens so many targets, it makes the job of a striker that much easier to drop things. Looking at the new and improved Lightning Bolt, it seems like a perfect combo. Fireball, action point, and lightning bolt the 3 things you happened to hit with the fireball. With Wand expertise, you're ignoring cover the monsters may be providing each other, with a Dragontooth Wand you're dealing decent damage with decent accuracy, with Evocation Apprentice (which by 5th level every essentials wizard will have) and probably a feat or two (from Implement Focus, Destructive Wizardry, Elemental Empowerment, Hellfire Blood, Dual Implement, etc) you're boosting damage. So damage with the fireball could be in the order of 25-26 points, and lightning bolt would be 18-19, both dealing half damage on a miss. At level 7-8, you're looking at monsters with 85-100 hit points, and if both powers connect you're looking at bloodying or nearly bloodying a couple monsters, and softening up a bunch of others.

It's simpler than Stinking Cloud for sure, but doesn't have the tactical fun you can have with Stinking Cloud. A moment like the Warlock hitting a target with Dire Radiance, action point Diabolic Grasp them into the Stinking Cloud, only to have the enemy walk out of it taking more damage from the Dire Radiance is pretty priceless. Dropping Stinking Cloud on top of the guy that just got immobilized by Infernal Moon Curse, is also rather fun. The damage build up from Stinking Cloud can surpass that of a fireball quickly.

And both powers have a situational nature, where Fireball requires that enemies not be spread all over the place, and that your wizard goes before your allies get stuck in melee, and Stinking Cloud Requires that you don't hinder your group with the blocked LoS, possibly denying your rogue easy flanks or your barbarian a path to charge.

I would have been very happy with Fireball as 3d6, pushed 1, knocked prone, but c'est la vie.

 

[Joshua Randall]

I will not rest till Fireball becomes an actual explosion and pushes people away!

Unfortunately everyone already has the Michael Bay feat and can outrun the explosion.

 

[shmoo2]

I would have been very happy with Fireball as 3d6, pushed 1, knocked prone, but c'est la vie.

I actually expected it to be 5d6 and knocked prone.
With the retro-vibe of the Essentials updates, 5d6 would make sense, since when you picked up fireball in AD&D at 5th level, you did 5d6 damage.

 

[Nightfly]

Area burst 3 is huge compared to other spells... so it never was that pathetic.

Bad spell x large area >< good spell.

Or, to put it another way, you can't take an average-ish encounter power, increase the burst size by 1, and have it be an acceptable daily power. Especially not for wizards, who have so many awesome, game-changing dailes. If Fireball were even moderately good for a daily, then the almost-identical encounter power Fire Burst would be incredibly broken, especially combined with Enlarge Spell. In fact Fire Burst isn't even particularly impressive, which really points out how awful Fireball was.

Like many others, I really wanted to see the spell knock prone, or daze, or even just have ongoing 5 fire damage. That would be more in keeping with 4E.

As it is...4 dice + brutal 1 + that huge burst is starting to sound interesting, especially if you have Genasi or Tiefling bonuses in the mix. But it still doesn't knock me out.

Thanks a ton to Fiery_Dragon for the quick reply (again!)

 

[Zaran]

Resurrection is an 8th-level Cleric Utility power. Req: You must use this power at the end of an Extended Rest. Target: One creature who died no more than 24 hours ago. Effect: The target is restored to life with full hit points and healing surges. Target takes -1 to attacks, skill checks, ability checks and saves until it has reached 3 milestones or taken 3 extended rests.

Wow, so if two people in the party die, they are kind of screwed. Can you imagine the delimma for the cleric when they have to basically decide who to bring back in that situation? Guess that makes the Raise Dead ritual useful to know anyway.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

See, depends on the situation...

nothing against a scondary effect. One dice doesn´t really change a lot... it´s more or less a psychological...

When combined with the feat that allows excluding spaces or at least deal less damage to your friends and even increase the area... then you are speaking about a minion clearing spell usable in any situation... especially when having combat advantage or using action point bonuses...

One single dice and brutal 1 does not increase its efficiency... knock prone would...