Gunpowder, fantasy and you

Generally speaking, do muskets mix with fantasy?

  • Yes

    Votes: 103 45.6%
  • No

    Votes: 41 18.1%
  • It's not that simple

    Votes: 82 36.3%

  • Poll closed .
Here's another way I look at it.

At a high level, a useful mental exercise might be to consider a high middle ages setting in a roleplaying game. Let’s say this setting is modeled closely on European technology and society in 1100.


Now to this setting, let’s add D&D magic. Would the addition of magic cause any changes to the setting? Well, as a game setting the designer can do what he or she wishes, but should magic cause a change?

The answer is we can’t say just yet. There is some tiny amount of added magic that is little more than the case of no magic, this would cause no perceptible change to the setting. On the other extreme, there is a large amount of magic that clearly would cause a change in the setting. Somewhere in between, the addition of magic would start causing changes to the setting, subtle at first but eventually one would expect changes to armies, fortifications, quality of life, all sorts of stuff.

How much magic is required? Well, here reasonable people can differ. We don’t really know and you can construct credible ranges of magic for the “tipping point”. I happen to think the level of magic described in the D&D rules is sufficient, others don’t. Many years of arguments have not resolved this.

Now let’s add firearms to the equation. From earth history, we know they perturb the setting as well. Moreover, it is difficult to control the “how much” of firearms. Magic can be restricted by various means of controlling access, percent of population that can acquire it, time required, etc. Firearms are technology that is well understood and not so easy to limit, given time. And what can be done from an initial introduction through the modern era can be easily extrapolated from Earth history.

So, for setting designers wanting to restrict changes to a setting, in this case a high middle ages one, but one that could as easily apply to any pre-firearms setting, it seems to me firearms are problematic. In game terms, as long as the setting creator and players are comfortable with it, it’s fine. But some players will have reasonable objections to firearms that might affect their acceptance of the setting.
 

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At 12 a noble would have had some basic martial training but was still a long way from being an effective warrior.
On the firearm scenario, I think of my cousins who at age 12 were respectable hunters.
See, there's another asymmetry. Unequal training.

I'd make the scenario more like this:
Our young noble has practised archery, swordmanship, and his fathers rifle, with his father. The father is killed, and the noble rushes to avenge him. He takes all three with him. He ambushes the killer, and, from a short range, uses one. Which is the most effective in the hands of a novice? I'm not really sure that I'd be able to answer that.
 

See, there's another asymmetry. Unequal training.

I'd make the scenario more like this:
Our young noble has practised archery, swordmanship, and his fathers rifle, with his father. The father is killed, and the noble rushes to avenge him. He takes all three with him. He ambushes the killer, and, from a short range, uses one. Which is the most effective in the hands of a novice? I'm not really sure that I'd be able to answer that.

I guess I needed to clarify my scenario further :p As the son of a nobleman, he would have in had training the bow and sword as well but there's only so far you can take a 12 year old with those weapons. So postulate equally trained 12 year olds. My thought is the rifle is much more usable to him than the other weapons. In both scenarios he is a 12 year old nobleman's son destined to be a warrior.

But to work with your scenario, I think in the hands of an untrained person, a firearm might be much more lethal. There is the issue of how to load the weapon which does suppose a certain level of technology to make it feasible. But let's say the kid say his dad load his musket, he might be able to do that himself although certainly not hit a target at 200 yards first time. But in the hands of someone untrained at close range, which is more lethal? A bow he can't string, a sword he can hardly wield or a musket he might be able to load (or a modern pistol he can certainly use)?
 
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But in the hands of someone untrained at close range, which is more lethal? A bow he can't string, a sword he can hardly wield or a musket he might be able to load (or a modern pistol he can certainly use)?
Okay. The gun. But not enough to make it a clear cut victory in my mind.

But if you make it a modern pistol, a modern bow, and the best sword, the gun wins every time. The modern bow will be slower to operate, and the sword will just be outclassed.
 

Okay. The gun. But not enough to make it a clear cut victory in my mind.

But if you make it a modern pistol, a modern bow, and the best sword, the gun wins every time. The modern bow will be slower to operate, and the sword will just be outclassed.

Well, no scenario is perfect but basically, I don't like the firearm lethality in my campaign world. Or, if it is modeled essentially the same as a bow or crossbow, I don't want the arguments about whether the gun should be more lethal :) But to each his own.
 

Hmm. If one assumes firearms, one almost automatically assumes technological progress, and then new and better firearms. A flintlock rifle isn't necessarily a gamebreaker if you want to maintain a certain level of romantics, but a winchester starts to get pretty close to one. But in the real world it took over two hundred years to get from the one to the other. Timeline for the progress is tricky, and people tend to assume that it would advance the same way it did in the real world.
 

TVTropes Fantasy Gun Control page makes the point that a lot of the time stories like to reduce their protagonist/antagonist final fight to melee because there's more action involved. Maybe the problem with guns vs. bows is that not as many people are able to subconsciously understand the melee-eliminating power of all ranged weapons vs. just guns doing it.
 

Hmm. If one assumes firearms, one almost automatically assumes technological progress, and then new and better firearms. A flintlock rifle isn't necessarily a gamebreaker if you want to maintain a certain level of romantics, but a winchester starts to get pretty close to one. But in the real world it took over two hundred years to get from the one to the other. Timeline for the progress is tricky, and people tend to assume that it would advance the same way it did in the real world.

Yes, I think there is a presumption that there will be technological progress. The same as Earth? That's not necessary. But if all you need is incremental metallurgical advancements and some experimental chemistry, a steady series of improvements in firearm technology does not seem unreasonable.

There are multiple axis for advancement. One is the progression from anti-personal weapons to anti-personal canons to anti-fortification canons and various degrees of effectiveness thereafter. There were problems to overcome on the path but at anyone step, it isn't hard to see or desire the next step and the technical problems aren't such that it takes an Einstein to progress. For this reason, there is often a presumption of technological progress. Does it automatically lead to an industrial revolution, steam engines and the like? Less likely but certainly not out of the question.

But here you see I may not have convinced you but we've discussed it back and forth for some time. Some of this thread went off into magic but much of it is firearm based. Some light weight arguments, some heavy weight but why go there at all? What do firearms really add to the setting? :p

For me, its simple, I don't like the aesthetics for multiple reasons already given and I don't see the need to toss my engineering, history, and firearm savvy players red-meat for an argument and why castle walls don't make sense. So no firearms for meB-)

I suppose you could posit that firearms don't advance quickly or at all because magic is so much more attractive but that seems to require a higher level of magic than most people are comfortable with, at least those saying that magic and firearms have little affect on the setting.
 

TVTropes Fantasy Gun Control page makes the point that a lot of the time stories like to reduce their protagonist/antagonist final fight to melee because there's more action involved. Maybe the problem with guns vs. bows is that not as many people are able to subconsciously understand the melee-eliminating power of all ranged weapons vs. just guns doing it.

Perhaps but I think it may also be that most gamers are more able to imagine a shield or armor stopping an arrow than a bullet.
 


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