Skill Challenge to (temporarily) replace Combat

[Dausuul]

Well, maybe 'pulling' was the wrong word to use... built into the skill challenge is the assumption that they are trying to do this stealthily, so more Metal Gear than WoW.

That's exactly what I asked them... they were worried that although the bullywugs were disorganized enough that they don't make particularly good sentries (not to mention the thick fog that blankets the area), there might be something in the main camp that can bring them running as reinforcements for the climactic fight at the end... which is kinda what I had in mind.

Hmm, okay. Fair point--I saw "pulling" and made some excessive assumptions. That scenario sounds more reasonable.

Still, I agree with those who say minion sentries are a simpler and more engaging way to handle this. Variations in terrain can make each sentry group a slightly different challenge (since the PCs must find a way to get enough party members in striking distance to take down the minions in 1 round), while still going much quicker than a full-scale level-appropriate battle.

 

[Dr. Confoundo]

So I actually think a skill challenge makes the most sense here. Set the Complexity to start with at 1 (4 successes before 3 failures), which represents one "guard post" of bullywugs. If they complete that, they can choose to keep going for more and more successes, with each complexity level they reach equaling a guard post that gets taken out. So if they can reach a Complexity 5 (12 successes before 3 failures) then they have eliminated all 5 guard posts surrounding the camp.

I like this. Consider it yoinked.

 

[GameDoc]

This is really off the wall, so take it as you will:

Allow one character per round to be the "trigger man" and make a melee basic attack to represent the killing blow. The others have to use their skills creatively to aid the trigger man's chances.

For example: A rogue can Stealth up from behind and impose combat advantage that makes the killing blow easier. A fighter could try to overpower the guard with an Athletics check and pin it while another deals the killing blow. A wizard could use Arcana to modify a cantrip effect and grant some advantage by distracting or confusing the guard (I'm going to cast light on his eyes. For a second, he'll be stunned. Stike quick before he actually cries out. A cleric could use Healing knowledge to say "hit this part of its anatomy (i.e., the windpipe or lung) and it won't be able to cry out."

Part of the fun of skill challenges is letting the players come up with inventive uses of skills rather than just the applications listed in the rulebook.

Of course, I love it when a ludicrous idea is put forth and the dice gods smile on it.

BECKETT: You're mad!
JACK SPARROW: Thank goodness for that, because if I wasn't, this would probably never work.

 

[DEFCON 1]

This is a good compromise that I would actually work with occasionally, GameDoc. Party members using skills to generate extra attack bonuses for a single character attempting a surprise round killshot on a minion. Basically using skill checks as Aid Another checks... so that successes give a +2 to the attack, failures give a -1. The hope being to make the attack as close to a 2 or higher on the roll as possible (although it would probably end up being closer to a 3 or 4 or higher, depending on the number of party members and the AC you set the minion at.)

There's still a very minor chance of failing the attack and thus allowing the minion a chance to scream... but it's not the 30% miss rate that most monster ACs are set at to ensure (if you ran minion combats as-is). Since we're talking probably 5 to 10 guards to take out... there's still plenty of chances to roll that elusive 1 and botch the whole thing up.

 

[KarinsDad]

Yeah, exactly: huh? Why has the DM decided that the Fighter is moving quietly because the Rogue made a Stealth check?

Because the Rogue's successful Stealth check is a success.

There is no Stealth check for the Fighter cause he does not even attempt one. He tries some other skill.

In a combat encounter, the Fighter would need to make a Stealth check to get in close quickly and quietly. Otherwise, the Fighter is further away when the encounter starts.

In a skill challenge, the Fighter gets to contribute without moving in quietly.

 

[MrMyth]

Because the Rogue's successful Stealth check is a success.

There is no Stealth check for the Fighter cause he does not even attempt one. He tries some other skill.

In a combat encounter, the Fighter would need to make a Stealth check to get in close quickly and quietly. Otherwise, the Fighter is further away when the encounter starts.

In a skill challenge, the Fighter gets to contribute without moving in quietly.

Well, that's one way to run a skill challenge. I've also seen ones where a character might have to make a Stealth check before they can participate in a certain 'arena' of the encounter - before the fighter can make Athletics checks to scale the wall and subdue the guard, he'd have to succeed at a Stealth check. If he doesn't want to risk it, he can contribute by rolling some Streetwise checks in town beforehand to gather good intel for the Rogue.

Or I've seen ones where a group Stealth check is required - at least half the PCs must succeed, representing the stealthier characters finding ways to help the armored fighter from alerting everyone.

Now, if it doesn't break your suspension of disbelief, sure, you can have the fighter 'auto-stealth' over to the wall and try and different skill.

If it does break your suspension of disbelief... then clearly you should adjust the skill challenge. Your problem isn't in the skill challenge system itself, it is with the specific one you have chosen to run.

 

[LostSoul]

Because the Rogue's successful Stealth check is a success.

There is no Stealth check for the Fighter cause he does not even attempt one. He tries some other skill.

In a combat encounter, the Fighter would need to make a Stealth check to get in close quickly and quietly. Otherwise, the Fighter is further away when the encounter starts.

In a skill challenge, the Fighter gets to contribute without moving in quietly.

I don't understand. Sure, he can contribute differently, but if he wants to move quietly he has to make a Stealth check.

 

[Dausuul]

I don't understand. Sure, he can contribute differently, but if he wants to move quietly he has to make a Stealth check.

The point is that in the scenario described, the fighter has no plausible way to contribute that doesn't require moving quietly.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I don't understand. Sure, he can contribute differently, but if he wants to move quietly he has to make a Stealth check.

Of course he does. But I think this is why KarinsDad does not like the idea of using a skill challenge rather than combat. If I'm understanding him correctly... he's saying that the use of certain skills other than Stealth imply that the Fighter has moved up with the Rogue to use that skill right next to the guard in question. Perhaps Athletics, or Endurance or something... like "I'm using Athletics to tackle the guard while the Rogue slits his throat".

And in this case, we do get the situation of the "phantom Stealth check" for the Fighter, who somehow manages to get up next to the guard while clanking in his armor... even though the Rogue was the only one to actually make a Stealth check. And in this regard, I can certainly understand why KarinsDad would be reticent to use this method for encounter resolution.

I myself do not have that much of a problem with the skill challenge format. That being said, as the DM I would probably require the Fighter (and all the PCs for that matter) to use and explain skills that don't involve being right next to the guards, if they aren't willing to make Stealth checks first. I probably would require a Stealth check to open up certain other up-close skills. But long-distance skills like Bluff (throwing a rock to create a diversion), Nature (knowing the habits and attention spans of bullywogs and how to confuse them), or Perception (keeping an eye on where the guards walk so the stealthing rogue can make his way up to him unseen)? I'd certainly allow these made from further away and thus not care that the heavily armored ones haven't made Stealth checks before hand.

Either way (combat or non-combat) works as an encounter resolution... it all depends on what would be most interesting for you and your party of PCs at the time you came upon it.

 

[Dr. Confoundo]

The point is that in the scenario described, the fighter has no plausible way to contribute that doesn't require moving quietly.

Let's run down the Fighter's trained skills to see how he can help out.

Athletics: The Fighter climbs to a vantage point out of sight of the patrolling guards, and after the Rogue makes a Stealth or Bluff check to draw their attention, he drops down behind them and dispatches them quickly.

Endurance: Same situation as for Athletics, but instead of climbing up, he's holding his breath in the swamp (a la Schwarzenegger in Predator).

Heal: The Fighter concocts something from his healing kit that the Rogue can sneak forward and slip into the guard's water supply, making them sleepy or otherwise easier to dispatch.

Intimidate: This is the only tricky one... Maybe the Fighter could devise a plan that will shock the guards into silence just long for his friends to circle them.

Streetwise: The Fighter uses his knowledge of how guards usually patrol to find a blind spot in the schedule, which allows them to advance to a more advantageous position.

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I'm getting the feeling that some people are opposed to the use of group Stealth checks in general... if one person fails the roll, then the group is spotted, right? Is there no room for mistakes?