Why is "I don't like it" not good enough?

[shadzar]

shadzar:

I think the main difference is that published settings (whether Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk or Wilderlands of High Fantasy) inklude a player section that preempts questions by giving or at least hinting at answers.

At one point, gms and players think alike: Both want the character to fit in as seamlessly as possible.

Many homebrews I encountered so far lack in this facility. They can´t help the player make an informed decision on what is possible and what not, what fits and what not.

Chapeau for the gm that not only creates a good setting to play in but also manages to ease the players into it.

Here´s one of he point the aforementioned question of "why" arises. Do I know everything I need to know to build a fitting character?

OTOH there are always people who are so afixed to certain ideas that they will never be able to fit their ideas into any setting if it is not the wildest kitchen sink, but that´s another matter.

I think we are walking down the same road, but opposite sides. So we are going to the same place, but haven't gotten together yet...

As I said with PoL, FR, etc has no game to it. The adventure is required.

You can Run the FR setting with an adventure Published in Neverwinter. The game is happening in Neverwinter, and you may have read some about it, but you don't know what is in that module.

Likewise a homebrew world is FR, and jsut the backdrop, but the action happens in the adventure.

There is no player section for most adventures that gives you advance details about what you will see in the adventure. It may offer a little about Neverwinter for those that don't know, but nothing to tell about the adventure itself as that is all learned through playing no matter if published or made by the GM.

I tried an experiment years ago replacing gold with steel bits, and people that had not played the setting thought I was crazy for coming up with such a thing. Later when told it was a published setting somehow they instantly accepted it and took back all their accusations of me making some crazy adventure.

This is my proof that people will see the published things a ok, while DM creations to instantly be questioned.

New players don't often question so much either as they don't have preconceptions of what exists or who is right or wrong, which is why I mentioned earlier to avoid the GM v player to new players. Some things you just have to learn for yourself.

So settings too, not jsut my point of adventures, are more often more readily accepted from the designers than form the DM running the game for you.

The designers are trusted more than the actual person in front of you.

 

[Rel]

I don't want to have to ban anybody from this thread so I'm telling you all in advance that none of you are allowed to say to shadzar, "Show me on the doll where the bad game designer touched you."

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Sorry. Maybe I am being dense here, but this hasn't enlightened me as to what your question is. Can you reword it, please?

Where are you getting the impression that anyone condones badgering the GM for his reasons?

Your participation in this thread has ... focused ... pretty strongly on arguing against, for lack of a better phrase, the-people-on-my-side-of-the-question for condoning badgering GMs in order to get them spill the beans.

You've used rather ... strong? ... language while doing so.

Rephrased, please quote the post where I, Rel, Hussar, Umbran, et al., says that this is okay and normal and expected. Rather than our actual point:

1. Communication is good, and will probably improve the game for everyone.
2. The DM saying "Because I just don't like it" is communication, but is unsatisfactory as an answer for multiple reasons.
3. Asking for clarification is normal and expected, as part of a normal, friendly, adult relationship.
4. The DM doesn't have to provide any more information if he really, really doesn't want to, but, given #1, it would be nice if he did.

 

[shadzar]

[MENTION=428]RaveN[/MENTION]: yes the DM has something to gain, IF it isn't a bad game.

Really? Maybe it's because I only hang out on En World and a couple of very small boards, but I rarely, if ever, see anyone smacking down the DM for simply altering things. What I do see are disagreements as to whether a particular alteration is a good idea or not, but that's a different issue.

I've very rarely seen anyone try to say "Thou shalt not alter the RAW". What usually happens is, "You altered the RAW. Have you thought of this, that and the other implication?"

But, that could be because I don't hang out on certain forums.

Well this thread I think the OP said was originally form a post made on WotC forums...so you are likely missing a lot os the "RAW" vs "RAI" arguements/wars if they still exist now that are there, or at least were when 4th was comely out in pieces in regards to 3rd edition.

ENWorld even has something to underline raw to show it stands for Rules As Written when you hover your mouse over it, so it had to be on here at one point and time as well.

Goes back to rules lawyers in general where their entire argument revolves around "but the book says do it like this", including but not limited to rulings, allowable races/classes, etc.

 

[Zhaleskra]

Yes, I did lose my cool. And you know why? Because people ARE telling me I'm a Bad GM for forbidding something well before the game even starts. You're judging me without knowing what's really going on, and there are several books that say that's "bad juju".

Another reason I lost my cool is because of people who keep posting the "you can forbid, but they can walk" chant. Yeah, we covered that. On the first page. TWICE.

 

[shadzar]

My view is no more skewed than yours, sir!

Which is, again, why I said upthread that your experience is so completely different from mine that we may as well be speaking different languages.

I don't roleplay with people I don't consider friends. I don't routinely hang out for long hours with people I don't consider friends, and I certainly don't do so at non-work-related functions.

Who said anything about "more"?

You should widen your view though.

Try playing games for game stores or game clubs. You will then see what some people in this thread are talking about, when you are running a game that isn't just for "friends".

It isn't that you are trying to, but you have a very narrow view of the whole, since you have closed yourself away from it to only game with friends. You might just have to experience DMing or playing with random strangers to understand better where some are coming from.

I don't want to have to ban anybody from this thread so I'm telling you all in advance that none of you are allowed to say to shadzar, "Show me on the doll where the bad game designer touched you."

Are you afraid I would answer it with a location?

I would probably laugh my glutius minimus off if they did though.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Who said anything about "more"?

It's a phrase. If my view is skewed, yours is, as well.

You should widen your view though.

Try playing games for game stores or game clubs. You will then see what some people in this thread are talking about, when you are running a game that isn't just for "friends".

This thread (and the other one) has been an excellent motivational tool to do no such thing! Why, according to you, gaming in such places is merely an invitation to play with ... hah hah* ... the "dregs" of the gaming public.

Rather, I say to you, stop playing with people you don't like and whose personalities you find odious. Play D&D, or Star Wars, or WoD, or whatever with your friends. You'll have much more fun, and be a saner person, for it.

* Sarcasm. That was still a rude comment.

 

[Rel]

You should widen your view though.

Try playing games for game stores or game clubs. You will then see what some people in this thread are talking about, when you are running a game that isn't just for "friends".

It isn't that you are trying to, but you have a very narrow view of the whole, since you have closed yourself away from it to only game with friends. You might just have to experience DMing or playing with random strangers to understand better where some are coming from.

Let me say this about that:

On Saturday night I had about 20 people in my house. Friends. Seven years ago I knew none of those people (apart from my wife). I met all of them at game stores, GenCon or the local ENWorld gathering we host called NC Game Day. Strangers who I gamed with the first time we met.

They were standing in my house on Saturday night, eating pizza (and corndogs! Corndogs are mandatory!), drinking beer and sharing game stories from the day's events. Why am I blessed to have such a wealth of nice people around me? Because I treated them as friends from the moment I met them. That's how I treat people I meet at game stores, GenCon and the like, right up until I'm given a good reason to do otherwise.

One more reason that I see little profit in brushing off those who ask a reasonable question of me as the GM.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I don't want to have to ban anybody from this thread so I'm telling you all in advance that none of you are allowed to say to shadzar, "Show me on the doll where the bad game designer touched you."

You're no fun anymore.

Another reason I lost my cool is because of people who keep posting the "you can forbid, but they can walk" chant. Yeah, we covered that. On the first page. TWICE.

Well thats what it comes down to when all the BS is stripped away.

 

[Obryn]

Ah. Those are good reasons. Thanks for explaining.

I declare Rel the winner of this thread.

-O