What changes/additions to multiclassing would you like to see?

[frogged]

First a quote from the DDXP Q&A session:
"Q: Do you guys have any plans on exploring options for cross-classing/multi-classing in fourth edition more similar to third edition?

A:
(Mike Mearls) Yes.
(Trevor Kidd) I've been play-testing some of this. I'm really excited about some of this.
(Mike Mearls) Yeah, It's definitely something we are working on and thinking about and testing."

Personally, I feel that current multiclassing is a little too feat intensive and paragon multiclassing trades away too many paragon path features for not enough versatility. I'd probably be happy with anything that addresses those issues.

 

[hayek]

I don't understand what's needed - they have hybrid rulees as well. Dear lord, please just don't let them go back to the 3.5 days of needing 5 different classes in order to have an optimized character...

 

[Mengu]

I don't think there is any need for more multiclassing options. The current system is fine. Hybrid is not my favorite thing, but it's out there.

I think rather than trying to open class options, opening role options would be a more interesting approach, call it multiroling. You can't multirole into your own role (so no striker/striker). But your barbarian could multi-role into defender, gaining an encounter mark or power of some sort that interrupts an attack against an ally. Or your invoker could multirole into leader, gaining an encounter heal of sorts or a power that grants allies CA and/or some damage bonus against a target.

While it might be fun to conceptualize a character as a member of two classes, I don't know if this visualization requires skin. I can have my eladrin resourceful warlord multiclass warlock and try to figure out how he will juggle a rod or wand to use an encounter power, keep 3 stats high, or mess with multiple expertise feats, etc. Or I can have my warlord multirole into striker, and gain some sort of encounter power that boosts damage and maybe adds some mobility, and I call it a pact with the fey queen. Same feat to the dwarf paladin may be an oath of vengeance he makes to his god, and to the goliath druid it might be the strength of the mountain king in his blood.

I want to see more abstract rules where you "add your own fluff". There are currently 140 or so multiclass feats, most of which are class specific. I don't want another two dozen ways you could multiclass just to simulate being member of another class.

 

[BobTheNob]

I just dont think there is that great a need in 4e. With themes and paragon classes, hybrids and (current) multiclassing, its so easy to get a nice, conceptually interesting character. The reason most people keep thinking "multiclassing" is because they had it pre-4e, but that just doesnt seem a compelling reason to have it in 4e.

I was helping someone put together a "Fighter/Mage" concept the other day. Went down to a hybrid swordmage/wizard, but that wasnt quite a good fit for what the player wanted, so we ended up with a (Dark Sun) fighter with Veiled alliance theme. Bingo!

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Honestly? Let characters take Hybrid Talent twice. That's the only change needed.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Honestly? Let characters take Hybrid Talent twice. That's the only change needed.

Yeah, except it will make some utterly broken hybrids, not going to happen and for that I am glad.

Seriously though, MC power swap feats are horrible. You can dredge up a very few corner cases where it is worth taking one, but as a general rule they are worthless. People only use MC feats nowadays to poach a bit of a class feature and/or as a slightly better version of Skill Training. That should tell you all you need to know about the uselessness of MC power swap feats and PMC.

Back when PHB1 rolled out it was at least arguable that you could get something useful out of taking power swaps, and PMC was at least an option that could make sense in a few corner cases. However heroic tier was relatively bereft of good feats for many characters, so it was not that big a deal to blow 1-3 feat slots for a lot of builds and you could get something worthwhile out of it that you couldn't get any other way. Now you have tons of other options besides straight class powers, especially with themes in the mix. Sacrificing a feat slot in order to swap out a power is simply a bad deal all around for basically any character.

Frankly I think a single feat that combines the effects of the existing 3 power swap feats would be reasonable. You MC and that gets you something worthwhile. Then you can take the 'Advanced Study' feat and get a single use of an at-will per encounter. At 4th level you can opt to swap a utility power, and at 8th level a daily power. Total cost is now 2 feat slots, one of which you get other stuff for, and you get the increased versatility for the other feat. If you do both power swaps then you can PMC, which might just about be viable.

The nice thing about the MC system is you can do it at any point in your character's career, which is a fairly unique bit of flexibility and can be used in coordination with things going on in-game, unlike PPs, EDs, Themes, and Hybriding, which are all options that you have to pick at a specific point in time. It is a nice subsystem, just way overpriced as the game is now.

 

[mneme]

Hybrid is very good--letting players take Hybrid Talent twice would likely do it (maybe let them take it multiple times? Would HT an arbitrary number of times break the game?)

OTOH, Paragon Multiclassing is terrible--It gets you very little that you can't do better by taking a cross-class paragon path, and the "requires paragon multiclassing" feats therefore are the ends of chains requiring four prior feats and giving up your paragon path. The ones for which I could see this being even passable are:

Arcane Aegis (but multiclass paladins get this with the cost of doing business)

Implement Master

Sorcerous Power

Walker in Gloom

Channel of Faith, Valor, etc (mostly because getting an extra encounter power is strong).

Battle Instructor

Battle Acumen (mostly only if you are doing a defender/defender multiclass and therefore have other ways of marking foes)

 

[RangerWickett]

Theoretically, if the designers balanced powers at each level so every 5th level daily is about equivalent (or rather, 5th level defender powers are all just about as good at defending; 5th level striker powers are just about equal in striking, etc.), then you should be able to take powers from any class without is mucking things up.

I want to be able to spend a single feat to 'gain a class,' and thereafter be able to pick powers from any of my classes. And there needs to be some way to have some of the class traits from multiple classes without having the watered-down feel the current hybrid rules have.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Theoretically, if the designers balanced powers at each level so every 5th level daily is about equivalent (or rather, 5th level defender powers are all just about as good at defending; 5th level striker powers are just about equal in striking, etc.), then you should be able to take powers from any class without is mucking things up.

I want to be able to spend a single feat to 'gain a class,' and thereafter be able to pick powers from any of my classes. And there needs to be some way to have some of the class traits from multiple classes without having the watered-down feel the current hybrid rules have.

Yeah, except having the full on version of class features from 2 classes opens up all sorts of broken. It is bad enough already with Swordmages and Paladins where they are only getting a weaker hybrid version of a class feature. Allowing unadulterated class features cross-class or 2 or more hybrid talent feats would simply make all non-hybrid classes obsolete mechanically. I don't think that is what we want. Honestly I'm not convinced class features should ever be sharable at all. Powers are fine, pay a feat for the privilege and swap 1 of each or whatever.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

I understand where they were coming from when they made both the weaksauce MC rules, and the hit-or-miss Hybrid rules. They were afraid to break the game.

With multiclassing, they were worried that if it was too easy, everyone would do it in order to poach a really juicy power, and it would become a "must have" option for the hard core optimizers, which, in turn would trickle down to the casual optimizers and power gamers. So instead, they made it really unattractive. And Paragon Multiclassing sucks.

Like AbdulAlhazred pointed out, back in the PH1-only days, there were probably a few corner cases where it would make sense. Not anymore; feats have become too valuable to blow on junk options like powerswaps that replace options you already had with something usually less good.

If those feats got you something else, then maybe. If they got you skill bonuses from your multiclass trained skill list, bought you additional encounter, daily, or utility powers like the Skill Powers do for Utilities, or even let you take both and choose which to use from a given slot, then, maybe.

Oh, and if Paragon multiclassing didn't gimp your character out of 3 abilities, and make you trade in an at-will... yeah, maybe. As has been pointed out, if you're multiclassing, a cross-class PP will almost always do better things for you than dipping back into your multiclass for powers will.

Hybrids and their issues are a different matter entirely. Clearly, they were afraid of creating loopholes to making monstrously broken characters. Ones that could effectively cover an entire role all the time and gain a little extra from another would be a problem. Allowing a character to add Hybrid Talent twice is not a good solution to this though. There are loads of builds that suddenly become better than being single-classed. It's less of a problem if you make them wait until Paragon to do it, but it's still not an ideal situation concerning balance.

Some of the Hybrid options will let you do viable things with your character, fair enough. Some will make you useless, and they warn you about that in the section on doing that, again, fair enough. Some of the combinations though, seem like they've been gimped just for the sake of gimping them. Some of them would be more viable if they didn't suffer so badly from MAD-ness.

I don't know what I do want to see, exactly, but I know that I don't want to see multiclassing become what it was in previous editions (i.e. "sweet 1-level dips" into Barbarian, or half a dozen PrClasses in 3e, or near-painless Thief multiclassing in 2e).

I think ideally, a modular approach would be neat. What class features are swappable between classes, sans-gimpage, and what is the balance-cost to do so? Can I make a Ranger that swaps Prime Shot for Hunter Weapon Talent? Can a bard give up Majestic Word for a striker mechanic like Soul of Sorcery?

In the meantime though, I want to know how e-classes interact with what we already have with respect to multiclassing and hybridizing. Unless this new multiclassing system mentioned at DDXP is going to be so good that it can replace the two systems already in place, then I would be hesitant to introduce a third way of doing it.

Ultimately, I like what Mr. Mearls has done, and I think whatever comes will be interesting and well-put together, but there is always that nagging little voice in the back of my head casting doubt. Until I see it, that is...