Which feats are "feat tax"?

[Abstruse]

I'm about to ramp up my 4e game and I'd like to houserule players getting the "Feat tax" feats for free so they can use their feats to customize their characters instead of wasting them fixing math problems. At the same time, I don't want my "looking for players" post to have a massive list of feats or other options that'll just confuse everyone (especially since I've got new players). If it helps, they're starting at 2nd level.

So what feats do you give to your players?

 

[Aulirophile]

See, this is now a tough question. Expertise and Paragon/Robust Defenses and one untyped Epic NAD feat at Epic to the lowest NAD and then ban the rest is the answer that easily fixed most of the math issues.

But now you have stuff like Light Blade Expertise, whose secondary benefit is completely worth it even without the Expertise part. Ditto Spear Expertise. Heavy Blade Expertise? Not so much.

What I would do:

+1 to attacks at 5/15/25. If they voluntarily take an Essentials Expertise Feat for the secondary benefit, this has the side-benefit that those feats give +hit at 11/21 instead (though they could exploit this via retraining at said levels, but eh). Make sure you allow Expertise to apply to any racial or non-Weapon/Implement keyword that scales at +2/4/6 (should be 3/6/9 with Expertise, think Dragonbreath).

Improved Defenses for free at level 9. If they take any of the new Superior Feats this'll be overwritten, but that is fine, as they'll still get an additional +1 to that NAD and those feats have serious side benefits.

And I would still give out an Epic NAD Feat at 21 to each character's lowest NAD, then ban the rest.

Some people consider Melee Training for Melee Characters who have no in-class option to get a decent MBA to be a tax. I don't personally agree with that, but YMMV.

 

[Abstruse]

Should I just give them their choice of Expertise Feat or Exotic Weapon/Implement Proficiency feat for free then? They're starting at 2nd level, so all the paragon/epic stuff doesn't apply yet, and I should be able to tell if they need more help once I watch how they handle things before they get to 5.

 

[Aulirophile]

Should I just give them their choice of Expertise Feat or Exotic Weapon/Implement Proficiency feat for free then? They're starting at 2nd level, so all the paragon/epic stuff doesn't apply yet, and I should be able to tell if they need more help once I watch how they handle things before they get to 5.

Actually if you're trying not to confuse them I'd just wait till 5 and explain your decision then. And tell them they cannot take Expertise till 5 in the meantime. ^.^

 

[The Human Target]

I give out the appropriate Weapon or Implement Expertise feat because PCs hitting a little more speeds up combat and seems more fun and Melee Training (whatever your prime score is) to help patch some of the Defender's a little and also it gives everyone a little power boost that doesn't effect much.

I don't think 4E really has much of a feat tax.

There are plenty of feats any given race/class combo is going to want to take probably, but thats not a tax. Thats some feats being great vs some feats being meh.

 

[Abstruse]

How about their choice of the following:

Weapon/Implement Expertise feat
Versatile Expertise
Melee Training
Weapon Proficiency
Armor Proficiency
Unarmored Agility

 

[Robtheman]

I can understand wanting to keep the LFP post simple. Towards that end, you can look at this problem as a monster problem, or a player problem.

If it's a monster problem, you change the monsters. If it's a player problem, you have to negotiate with 4-6 people and remind them of stuff all the time.

I'd go with the first option and just decrease the monster defenses by 1/2/3 (at 5, 15, 25) and see how it goes. Do the same for monster attacks against NADs. You are fixing a presumed math problem, so banning the actual feats isn't necessary. If they take the feats that have the same effect they will be getting the appropriate benefit from the feat.

 

[Abstruse]

I'd go with the first option and just decrease the monster defenses by 1/2/3 (at 5, 15, 25) and see how it goes. Do the same for monster attacks against NADs. You are fixing a presumed math problem, so banning the actual feats isn't necessary. If they take the feats that have the same effect they will be getting the appropriate benefit from the feat.

I was with you up until this part. I'm not banning feats, I'm giving out free feats. And I'd rather give the players something to fix the math than do any extra bookkeeping since I'll be doing more than enough of that just running the game.

 

[Robtheman]

I'm not saying you did. =) The part about "not banning" was a response to the previous poster. Fair enough. Instead of giving them free feats just tell them to add 1 to their attack rolls and NADs when they hit level 5.

I suggest that because the character builder only uses one bonus of a given type to a given attribute or stat. Example: Master of Arms and Expertise: Staff would both grant +1/+2 at the appropriate levels. One might be a bit more advantageous at a specific level, but ultimately you can't have both bonuses. If you give them a feat , and they enter it in the CB, they would be restricted from getting the "intended" benefits of the expertise feats (or NAD bonuses).

 

[Dice4Hire]

Really, the game plays fine without all the "feat tax" feats. Or at least without giving them out for free.

I have been of the opinion that teamwork and bonuses from other players an fill the 'holes' in the numbers well enough.

That said, the above posters have pointed them out just fine,, and they get real hard to ignore in Paragon and Epic. +3 to hit for a feat is amazing.