Please explain lowering HP's and amping damage

[gjnave]

Okay.. (running SoW)..
For example: Cave Bear on p.18 (Dungeon 156)
Level 6 Elite Brute
HP: 170
AC: 20
Fort: 21

So.. according to threads I've been researching, ive changed the above to this:
HP: 170
AC: 18
Fort: 19
+2 to all attacks
when bloodied: auto recharge Bear Frenzy and use

However, it still seems like an inordiante amount of HP's. What am I missing?

Same thing with "Ogre Savage" on p. 14
HP 111
AC 19
Fort 21
Reflex 16
Will 16

THe only thing i changed:
+2 to attack.


is this right?

 

[gjnave]

Forgot to mention:
Ogre savage is LEvel 8 Brute

 

[Destil]

The +2 to hit for brutes is part of the new monster math.

Am I reading this right that one's an elite and one's a standard? Elite monsters take up double the DM's XP budget for an encounter, so they need to be twice as bad-ass as a normal monster. Generally that means they've got double the HP and two attacks a round.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

General rule is to increase damage up to average of level + 8 (so for instance a level 1 standard monster baseline damage will be say 1d8+4). Brutes get 1.25x this damage, so say 2d8+2 at level 1 for a basic attack.

A level 6 Elite Brute would do probably say 3d6+7 2x per round. A level 8 brute might do 3d8+7 with its basic attack.

As for hit points they aren't modified in general. The idea is simply that you don't need as high a level monsters to be threatening, so if you cut back on levels you get lower hit points. 170 is a big chunk of points, but then again it is basically 2 monsters. I haven't read the adventure, so I don't have specific recommendations on this one monster. Your other numbers look right though.

 

[gjnave]

General rule is to increase damage up to average of level + 8 (so for instance a level 1 standard monster baseline damage will be say 1d8+4). Brutes get 1.25x this damage, so say 2d8+2 at level 1 for a basic attack.

How do you figure that math? 12 * 1.25 = 15 and the brute hp you quoted is 18

Just trying to figure this out. Thanks for your help!

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

How do you figure that math? 12 * 1.25 = 15 and the brute hp you quoted is 18

Just trying to figure this out. Thanks for your help!

Average, not max. 2d8 averages to 9, so 2d8+2 is 11 average, which is about right for a level 1 brute. 1.25 * 9 being a bit over 11. It seems like the new damage chart basically rounds down. Note too that limited use damage gets another 1.25, so an encounter brute power might do 2d8+5 or so at level 1.

 

[kaomera]

I know that at one point (prior to MM3 and the July 2010 updates) I had seen several posters suggesting reducing monster hp by some % and then raising average damage by some % (different values for each, IIRC) specifically to speed fights up without reducing challenge. Anyone have a link to that?

Also, I'd like to point out that updating monsters is somewhat more complicated than simply applying the new formula. Many monsters are supposed to deviate from the norm in some ways (most obvious would be some defenses above average, others below) and if you don't preserve that in some form they can become problematic.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Also, I'd like to point out that updating monsters is somewhat more complicated than simply applying the new formula. Many monsters are supposed to deviate from the norm in some ways (most obvious would be some defenses above average, others below) and if you don't preserve that in some form they can become problematic.

I don't think monsters are supposed to deviate from the norms when it comes to AC, especially when it comes to high AC. (Incidentally, rules differences for elites and especially solos are quite different; they no longer gain that +2 AC bonus.)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I know that at one point (prior to MM3 and the July 2010 updates) I had seen several posters suggesting reducing monster hp by some % and then raising average damage by some % (different values for each, IIRC) specifically to speed fights up without reducing challenge. Anyone have a link to that?

Also, I'd like to point out that updating monsters is somewhat more complicated than simply applying the new formula. Many monsters are supposed to deviate from the norm in some ways (most obvious would be some defenses above average, others below) and if you don't preserve that in some form they can become problematic.

Well, many people have lowered monster hit points by some fraction. Before the MM3 updates they also sometimes raised damage. Note that significant changes devalue conditions quite a bit and make the game considerably less tactical. This may or may not be a problem.

I would say that with the MM3 updates this kind of thing is not necessary anymore. Previously many groups were fighting level + 5 encounters consistently. This meant a very large extra amount of hit points in play, which then motivated people to drop hit points. Simply increasing damage by a nice 20% or so really makes a huge difference, along with dropping the lower accuracy of brutes, which made them ineffective unless over leveled. I'd note to that older monster designs (especially at higher levels) were FAR under even the anemic damage output guidelines of the original DMG1 damage tables. Once damage and accuracy fixes are made you can drop back to the intended level + 0 being a worthwhile encounter, which means as much as 25% less hit points on the table just by itself, and level + 3 is now pretty deadly, which is still a good bit less hit points than before for the same challenge.

As far as monsters deviating from the standard numbers... Really not that many did vary by a lot. NADs were always affected by the monster's stats, which could cause some significant variance in a few cases, but AC was almost always stock. Noting that AC for soldiers is now in line with other monsters and elites and solos no longer (as of MM2) get defense boosts you will find that AC is almost always nominal. NADs will vary some, but rarely more than a couple points. Frankly I wouldn't even worry about this too much. A point or too off on defenses isn't going to break things, though I would shave down older elite/solo monsters (but then again I wouldn't even use MM1 solos except maybe some of the heroic tier ones).

 

[Dice4Hire]

The numbers I remember (pre-MM3) were drop hp by 33% and up damage by 25%.

I did something like this in my games and it helped a lot

Since MMIII I have been very happy with how monsters fight. MV is great.