How would you houserule (nerf) magic at high levels.

[korjik]

The magic user has better tools for exploration than the fighter, doesn't he? Fly, Scry, Invisibility, Alter Self or Polymorph to blend in with the environment, Charm Person for interrogations, divinations to solve puzzles, and no doubt other things I haven't thought of. What does the fighter class have mechanically that helps in exploration?

A layer of steel and a sharp pointy thing he is really good at using for when the dragon hiding behind a cloud decides that invisibly flying around looking like someone else is rude.

A wizard can invisibly fly around looking like someone else. A smart wizard has someone else invisibly fly around looking like someone else. A smart wizard with a good DM has someone else get eaten while invisibly flying around looking like someone else.

 

[Elf Witch]

Because the wizards still outshine everyone. The problem has dual layered - fighters are only one part.

Even if you nerf the wizard to the point that he does not outshine everyone else. Which BTW I don't agree with. You are still left with the issue that the fighter still has nothing to do outside of combat.

You pointed out the question what is his job in exploration. Good point what is his job.

If you take away the wizard narrative abilities then all you have accomplished is now having two classes that can't move the narrative.

It is a dual layered problem that can't be solved just by making wizards a bore to play.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

The magic user has better tools for exploration than the fighter, doesn't he? Fly, Scry, Invisibility, Alter Self or Polymorph to blend in with the environment, Charm Person for interrogations, divinations to solve puzzles, and no doubt other things I haven't thought of. What does the fighter class have mechanically that helps in exploration?

First, the wizard is not guaranteed to have any of those spells. Second, fly is not that useful in a lot of dungeons. It also makes the puny wizard with 12 hit points the scout. And one dispel magic equals a dead wizard. He's much better casting fly on the ranger or thief.

Besides, all those things save fly are not all that useful in exploring a dungeon or even in a hex crawl. They are information gathering and plot exposition tools. And they serve the entire party, not just the wizard. If it was a solo game, I'd agree, the wizard is a more attractive class.

What does the fighter bring? Well, he's called the fighter for a reason. He fights. When combat breaks out, that's when the warriors shine. The above wizard throws darts since he doesn't have fireball, he has fly memorized. He doesn't have magic missile or sleep, he has charm person.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Even if you nerf the wizard to the point that he does not outshine everyone else. Which BTW I don't agree with. You are still left with the issue that the fighter still has nothing to do outside of combat.

You pointed out the question what is his job in exploration. Good point what is his job.

If you take away the wizard narrative abilities then all you have accomplished is now having two classes that can't move the narrative.

It is a dual layered problem that can't be solved just by making wizards a bore to play.

The narrative is decided by the players in my game, no matter their class. They go where they want and do what they want. The story is about the players and their actions. It's not predefined such that I only need them to turn a page to start the next prewritten chapter.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

A layer of steel and a sharp pointy thing he is really good at using for when the dragon hiding behind a cloud decides that invisibly flying around looking like someone else is rude.

A wizard can invisibly fly around looking like someone else. A smart wizard has someone else invisibly fly around looking like someone else. A smart wizard with a good DM has someone else get eaten while invisibly flying around looking like someone else.

First, the wizard is not guaranteed to have any of those spells. Second, fly is not that useful in a lot of dungeons. It also makes the puny wizard with 12 hit points the scout. And one dispel magic equals a dead wizard. He's much better casting fly on the ranger or thief.

Besides, all those things save fly are not all that useful in exploring a dungeon or even in a hex crawl. They are information gathering and plot exposition tools. And they serve the entire party, not just the wizard. If it was a solo game, I'd agree, the wizard is a more attractive class.

What does the fighter bring? Well, he's called the fighter for a reason. He fights. When combat breaks out, that's when the warriors shine. The above wizard throws darts since he doesn't have fireball, he has fly memorized. He doesn't have magic missile or sleep, he has charm person.

So the response to "combat is just a fun minigame, it's a game about exploration" is "The fighter is only good at the minigame"

Um.

Even if you nerf the wizard to the point that he does not outshine everyone else. Which BTW I don't agree with. You are still left with the issue that the fighter still has nothing to do outside of combat.

You pointed out the question what is his job in exploration. Good point what is his job.

If you take away the wizard narrative abilities then all you have accomplished is now having two classes that can't move the narrative.

It is a dual layered problem that can't be solved just by making wizards a bore to play.

When did I say that one should just nerf the wizards? I've been rather adamant about the need to give fighters cool things to do.

 

[Elf Witch]

When did I say that one should just nerf the wizards? I've been rather adamant about the need to give fighters cool things to do.

I must have missed those comments because the impression I get from most of your posts is that wizards need to be gotten rid off or reduced in power so that others get to shine.

I am rather curious if you feel this way about cleric and druids? I often see those classes just being able to step all over everyone's feet. Both clerics and druids can make a pretty good front line fighter.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

So the response to "combat is just a fun minigame, it's a game about exploration" is "The fighter is only good at the minigame"

Um.

No, he's the best at the minigame all day long.. He's equal in roleplaying and in exploration most of the time. I use the term exploration as in exploring a dungeon or wilderness setting - what's behind door number two or over the next hill. Generally, that doesn't take any classes abilities, it's decided on player input.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Who's talking combat? The wizard has all the narrative tools.

Let's hear how your fighter helps in the exploration without using combat. Tell us what the fighter brings to the table while exploring. Remember, combat is just a cool minigame!

The whole topic of magic users vs fighters is a hot topic for you. I get that. However, you have become a bit of an argumentative one-note-samba on the subject, and are in danger of derailing every thread you enter which touches on the subject. You've been banned from similar threads recently, and I'd rather not do it again, but it depends upon you choosing to limit yourself to the topic at hand, as well as stopping to badger people about your hobby horse.

This thread is about how people might choose to nerf magic at high levels. By all means participate in this discussion, but get off your hobby horse about class design, role of fighters etc.

Thanks

 

[Mort]

Interesting point and examples - if you dig that sort of stuff.


For what it's worth I disagree. If you have ever read David Gemmell, Druss the Legend epitomises for me the "mundane" warrior who is as powerful (or perhaps influential is the more accurate word) as most powerful wizards. His ability to survive combined with the effect he has on an army of men and on an enemy horde is literally "Legendary". As a leader of men, Druss is exactly what a high level fighter should look like. While he cannot conventionally attack multiple enemies (as the wizard), he can get the most out of his allies when they are down, and he can defeat an entire group of enemies before a sword has been swung.

Throw in mechanics for the fighter to do this (I suppose intimidate is one, but as is often with skills vs. magic most DMs would never allow the fighter to acomplish with intimidate what they would allow the mage to easily to with a fear effect, because "magic") and I can see this. Druss would be a great example for mechanics to emulate but people tend to get antsy when giving narrative control to anyone but the mage.

Now in D&D, I think a lot could be done to accomplish this (that really hasn't been so far). I think it is an important goal for any new edition (as if this will ever happen given the trend thus far) to mundanely increase the power of the fighter while keeping the mystery and power of the wizard (but getting rid of spells that serve no more purpose than to tread on the toes of other classes abilities). If supernatural abilities get added or folded into the mix, the so be it but a high level mundane fighter should be able to control a battlefield by their presence alone. It is up to the designers though to do this.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

That's correct.

4e actually does this - look at the fighter's powers, most of them are "hit things really hard" the encounter and daily just allow the player to assert some narrative control as to sometimes hitting things even harder. The movement powers too, just allow the player to dictate the battlefield in a non-magic way (even "come and get it" the one most of the arguments are over is not magic, it's narrative control). Of course, many people have an issue with this as "not feeling right" usually in the form of too much like magic - and it's certainly not everyone's cup of tea, but can't say 4e does not make the attempt.

 

[Psycho5150]

When it comes to nerfing any class in any system you are bound to begin an aggressive discussion. Though I personally would rather have a discussion with your play group about what setting you are trying to portray and if you have a playgroup you know then trusting them to not munchkin you and allow the "kung fu" movie of your campaign to truly flourish. Rather then nerf any class I sit down with my play group and we create the setting, therefore we create the self imposed guidelines to follow and spells that should be given an additional cost or casting time. In our case it relies on our fundamental reason for where does magic come from in our setting.

In short, my group has one person who loves magic and I don't want to kill his fun to make the game "better" for no magic casters. I choose to tailor what I have to allow my characters to feel equal with each other. We have made casting materials hard to come by, etc.

P.S. D20 Modern caps the magic at spell level 5 and that worked well for a low magic setting in my experience, especially with Spell Point system.

P.S.S. Kung Fu movie campaign - Every main character gets there individual time to shine and show off as we go from start to finish of the campaign, just like a good kung fu movie gives each main character a chance to show off their awesome skills.

Remember it is a game and a game is supposed to be fun for those who are playing.