Cleric (Templar) is Up

[keterys]

The folks imputting data for the compendium get stuff well before it's finalized (unfortunately) due to the extra time needed to code any changes required, so it is extremely possible for errors to slip in with errata that was _considered_ but not actually done happening.

For example, the warlord power "Intuitive Strike" has actually been wrong in the compendium for months, using a version that was never released to the public.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Or demons, or immortals. You know, pretty much every monster that is available at epic tier....Also it's the whole fact that it's also a minor action by this point that is a huge problem.

Now, the demons & immortals bit is a feat, and so is the minor action, right? So, really, its a feature+feat+feat combo, that's broken.

Rather than trebly nerfing the power, reigning in the feats somehow might have been an option.

For instance, instead of 'Your Turn Undead power afffects Immortals,' it could be 'Your turn undead power has some affect on immortals: inflicting half damage upon them and does not immobilize them, with no effect on a miss' or 'your turn undead power damages immortals, but does not push or immobilize them.' Then more modestly nerf the high-level AE, maybe boosting the low-level AE - 3/4/5 would be about ideal, IMHO. Big enough at low level that a mostly-ranged Devoted Cleric can catch some undead in it without having to set himself up to be mobbed, but not so big as to hit the whole field at high level. OR, leave the AE, but bring the damage way down, so the Epic cleric can still clear an army of minion zombies, but not bloody every-other encounter.

 

[Incenjucar]

The power is a problem when facing undead.

The feats are additional problems, though only when the power is a problem.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Could it be that Wizard's really needs to use more monster types in Epic? If Turn Undead is only kicking ass in Epic level because Epic has the fewest monster types then maybe this is the problem.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

How many epic modules involve these few types of monsters?

 

[mudlock]

Don't worry: if a bunch of epic-level fey come out, I'm sure there will be a feat that makes turn undead work on fey creatures, too.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

How many epic modules involve these few types of monsters?

Umm, considering that there are basically 3 epic modules, plus Scales of War, basically 100% of them.

There simply AREN'T any epic monsters that don't have some keyword/origin that you can't hit with TU. Maybe there are a few. Fey, but there are like 3 epic fey and they're around 20th level. There are a few misc monsters. Maybe the Apocalypse Spells? Not sure about Slaadi, I think they're elemental. There are some few aberrations. That is about the long and short of it. Maybe a natural magical beast or two. Basically if you're going to run epic and don't want to use demons and undead you're SOL. You could manage a few encounters where TU wouldn't work, but with 10 levels = at least 60 encounters that isn't much.

As Aegeri has said many times, Epic really is pretty barren. E1-3 pretty much used (or invented) all the epic undead. You could do a demon-themed story arc, but it will be ALL demons, and TU will work nicely there.

 

[Aegeri]

To show how desperate Wizards got, it's worth having a read of E1-E3. Note how many non-new demons they made, but how many paragon level creatures they began slapping levels on and leveling up into epic. It's pretty clear from that module that even Wizards ran out of monsters.

Also all of the current epic tier adventures I can think of use undead and demons. E1-E3 has plenty of them obviously, but so does the Scales of War series of adventures. One deals with Orcus and the other with Tiamat. You can throw a few dragons in there as well with Scales of War as well.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Could it be that Wizard's really needs to use more monster types in Epic? If Turn Undead is only kicking ass in Epic level because Epic has the fewest monster types then maybe this is the problem.

I agree. I'd get really, really tired of fighting demons and undead at epic. If I ever get to play more than 4 sessions at that level.

Brad

 

[Aegeri]

I agree. I'd get really, really tired of fighting demons and undead at epic. If I ever get to play more than 4 sessions at that level.

Brad

Try being the DM who has to either use those monsters or make his own monsters. That's really how little choices you have: Use the limited resources available or make everything yourself. I don't want my PCs fighting demons (or elementals) and undead all the time. I really don't, but at the same time I'm a human being and I can't be expected to write all my own monsters for 10 levels of play. So they have to be a significant chunk of it or I just can't do it.

While at heroic tier? You have about ten billion options for all kinds of cool and different monsters. Paragon tier? You don't quite get into the billions, but you have so many good choices that you're pretty spoiled there too.

Epic tier? Nah, forget it if your campaign wasn't about demons or specifically named solos/elites.

Edit: Like just to make my point, I have 2 campaigns right now ongoing where I have an absolutely 100% clear idea from levels 1-20 down to what monsters I will be using. After level 20? I have no idea. I'm just holding out hope that when I get there support for epic tier monsters will have finally appeared.

On the other hand I am starting another game soon where I have everything from 1-30 down. Why? Because I am indulging myself in all the new demons and elementals added to the game. It isn't that running epic tier is impossible: It's about what choices you have to do so.