Essentials multiclassing playtest?

[GMforPowergamers]

Depends on the party. If you don't have someone built for a kickin' MBA, then it's no good.

Just like my resourceful warlord who gives attacks almost every turn rocks in my party with a battlerager a Druid a slayer and a scout... But would suck with an invoker swordmage rouge sorcerer set up...

It all comes down to the group.

In my group my 2w encounter that adds 2 stats averages the same damage as 2'of my team mates basic attacks, and is far belies either striker basic attack... So if I took a 4w power commander strike could be better under the right circumstance... But my daily is 1w that does massive (since two allies get basics on top of it)

 

[mneme]

Indeed re staggering note. The tricky thing there is that it requires two to-hit rolls, which is normally terrible. But the fact that it does two cool things on its own (minor damage and a push 2), that it's against will (generally the easiest defense to hit), -and- that it lets an ally make a basic pushes it over the top [assuming you're using it when it's the right power--eg, only when an ally with a good basic is in range].

You want a terrible leader at will? Talk about Furious Smash. Fixed damage, against what's often the hardest to hit defense in the game [Fort, though it -is- weapn vs Fort, so not terrible], and grants a power bonus based on a secondary to hit and damage. It's almost like aiding an attack, except that you have to take a power for it--and might, you know, miss. Or even Opening Shove -- which is exactly like Staggering Note--except, you know, worse in almost every way (ok, there are two ways it's better; it's Weapon vs Reflex, so it's very accurate, and while you don't want to use it, you've got the giant shift option instead of the attack if an ally needs it).

 

[Argyle King]

I actually like Furious Smash. Yeah, it's against Fort, but it's also a weapon attack. It's was a nice power for when I was facing things with tough ACs.

However, with the options (i.e. Expertise) which are now available to help characters hit, that benefit of being able to target Fort with a weapon attack probably isn't as good. When I first start playing 4E, I liked Furious Smash as a fallback option.

 

[mneme]

[MENTION=58416]Johnny3D3D[/MENTION]: Making an Inspiring Warlord out of PH1, I took Furious Smash too (I think FS and Wolf Pack Tactics)--as it was situationally strong. But the Chr warlord out of PH1, with the exception of Wolf Pack Tactics (which is situational) has a choice between at wills that are often worse than making a basic attack. So while Furious Smash is worthwhile when you're up against a soldier or overlevelled skirmisher, between WPT (often pointless, sometimes very good); and FS (a crapshoot until you know an enemy has an easier to hit Fort than AC -- not necessarily where to bet in MM1), it was often worthwhile to just charge, and get an attack that was universally better than a basic.

More recent warlord options -- between -3- basic attack granting at-wills, paint the bullseye and intuitive strike for better buff options, and good item buffs available for warlords who grant attacks, have really helped to push FS down and out -- although to be fair, it's one of the few stat based to-hit buffs left in the game, and better monster books have improved the chance of a weapon vs fort attack hitting something.

 

[Neonchameleon]

At lower levels I managed to do reasonably well, despite having a CHA that was 2 points lower than INT, by using things like Eyebite and Witchfire. So what, if I wasn't doing big damage to the BBEG. I was knocking his attacks down by 6 at level 1, so that everyone else could concentrate fire on him for a turn. Once a day I was doing reasonable damage to said BBEG, slamming him into the Defender and melee Striker, then slipping him back in their direction until he made a save.

Yes. One attack per encounter you had a seriously nice encounter power that hoses solos. And once per day you got ... a daily. The other 75% of the time you sucked.

My biggest success, in playing a Deceptive Warlock, was in deceiving the DM into thinking that I wasn't contributing much to the combat. There were quite a few combats in which I took not a single point of damage, either by dint of being ignored or teleporting away from (blinded) danger.

So. You managed to not only convince the DM that you weren't contributing much, but to actively make the defender and leader's job harder by encouraging the DM to focus fire. W00T! If you aren't taking damage then you aren't doing your part of the job; unless you are doing something pretty spectacular to make up for it (see: well played wizards), you are dragging the party down. Taking no damage is nothing to boast about - if anything the reverse. And deceiving the DM into playing the monsters more dangerously (as you did) is not something to be proud of either.

So to sum up you convinced the DM you weren't contributing much to the combat and this made you contribute even less.

And for at-will suckage, I think that the Bard's Staggering Note is right up there. No damage *roll* so no bonuses, and low fixed damage. Yes, it's a leader, but it's still painful.

There are two seldom useful types of At Will - the weak and the (normally even weaker) situational.

A weak at will is normally useful - but not very. As a general rule they are either about equal in power to a normal basic attack based on their stat or lose a little and gain a little. Good examples of weak at wills are Careful Attack (or whatever the Ranger +2 to hit one is that needs to compete with Twin Strike) and ... Eldritch Blast (most of the RBA powers except Magic Missile fit this - but EB is one of the weakest of these). The thing about weak at wills is that almost no one takes them because they are weak. Except the Warlock who has to take Eldritch Blast...

A situational at will is normally weaker than a weak at will - but when it is good it is very good. Staggering Note, Magic Missile, and Brash Assault come to mind. Magic Missile does what it does (autohit). Brash Assault is only any good if you have nearby allies with basic attacks; otherwise it is terrible. Staggering note likewise. But with those two powers when they work they are superb - the trick with those is to set them up before you use them, and difficulty varies. Eyebite is another such power - granting a useful situational boost if you have something to set up. However balancing this is that it's weak the rest of the time. And because of the nature of it empowering your other powers, it's not a good power if you're not planning on an Encounter or Daily. Give the Warlock more encounter powers and even if the opportunities to get high mileage out of it become no more frequent, you can pick them without having to fall back on Eyebite.

This means that (without Hexblade Weapons) the Warlock doesn't have a single workhorse power that does a decent job for routine use at low level. One at will is weak, the other's situational and therefore even weaker when the right situation can't be set up (which is a lot of the time).

 

[Ryujin]

Yes, the other 75% of the time i sucked. Just like everyone else at those levels.

As the job of the Defender is to keep attackers off my butt I think that I actually aided in that, rather than 'not doing my job.' if they focus fired on me, I'd be down. Focus firing on the Defender is 'operating as designed.' Of course, in later Paragon, I became a far more obvious danger and received a heavy dose of the attacks. The Archer Ranger still received more, which was as it should be.

A situation At-Will is always weak sauce, if the party can't or doesn't have a way to exploit that situation. When I resorted to At-Wills, in Paragon, it was invariably Eyebite even though I then also had Spiteful Glamor. The additional effect was more useful than the minimal damage increase.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Yes, the other 75% of the time i sucked. Just like everyone else at those levels.

Um... no. My Bravura Warlord's Brash Assault was doing scary damage. My wizard was convincing the DM to tear his hair out with either Storm Pillar or good use of Freezing Burst and tactical positioning (Freezing Burst + mountain paths having I think killed more bad guys in that campaign than every other power from every PC combined). Vicious Mockery and Guiding Strike both rocked from my Bard (as did Jinx Shot) - and Hand of Radiance is a damn good power even before taking Power of the Moon. I'd hardly call a first level Monk, slamming people to the ground and with whirlwind attacks sucking. Slayers and Knights can do their things pretty much without problems. Rangers are gleefully twin striking - and that's still ahead of the damage curve (but behind the rogue for a while). It's just the Warlock. Everyone else has a decent At Will selection.

As the job of the Defender is to keep attackers off my butt

The job of the Defender is to prevent other people being the targets of focus fire - a different thing entirely. Focus fire on the defender and he still goes down although not quite as quickly as you would.

A situation At-Will is always weak sauce, if the party can't or doesn't have a way to exploit that situation.

The problem is that Feylocks have nothing but situational at wills or weak at wills. This is as far as I'm aware a problem exclusive to Warlocks.

When I resorted to At-Wills, in Paragon, it was invariably Eyebite even though I then also had Spiteful Glamor. The additional effect was more useful than the minimal damage increase.

Honestly, Spiteful Glamour is terrible (and balanced by Darkspiral Aura being superb). And at Paragon, a single point of damage doesn't matter much compared to a control effect. But once again the problem is strongest at low levels - both when the At Wills matter most and when single points of damage matter most.

 

[Neverfate]

I remember when this thread was a cool thread about hybrids and multiclassing. This thread sold out.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I remember when this thread was a cool thread about hybrids and multiclassing. This thread sold out.

One of my players asked about stacking defender aura with the rouge at will that lets you attack back if they attack you...

 

[keterys]

Sure, it works - but the target could also just shift a square away and get out of the aura, then attack whoever they wanted