Mearls: The core of D&D

And if you didn't want to have your 3.x as heavily influenced by 4 you could call it a Second Wind to avoid the magical mechanic of Healing and you could have the player spend a hero point to do it.

This is a more conservative approach and possibly more palatable. Since it only heals part of a character's hit points you can define it in terms of not healing physical hit points, just the intangible stuff.
 

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I distinctly remember when I first started playing (over 20 years ago), the moment my characters acquired their first magical weapons were incredible, awe-inspiring moments. And tossing away (if I was carrying too much) or selling my normal weapon for a few coins, and sheathing that +1 whatever, that just felt powerful.
Ah yeah, the memories! Still, therre are a few options if you want to cut down a bit on the magic level in AD&D games.
 

Good point. If we hypothesize some arbitrary system that has essentially nothing in common with 4E's healing surges except that its uses similar terminology, we'll have demonstrated... umm...

Well, I guess we'll have demonstrated absolutely nothing of relevance.

I mean, I can sit here all day hypothesizing a huge variety of systems which just happen to use the terms "healing surge" and "second wind". But it will all be completely irrelevant in a discussion about how the healing surge mechanics in 4E work.

Just like your post.

But I defined Healing Surges and Second Winds exactly as they are used in 4e. Hey, I've admitted elsewhere that I am uneasy with the concept of healing surges. You just made an inexplicable claim that they somehow lead to a shorter adventuring day. I literally could not believe it.

I mean if it has been your experience that players spend all their healing surges in one encounter, or that the amount of healing possible is capped at some unreasonably low number, fine. But you are the only one I have ever heard experience this.
 

Hey, I've admitted elsewhere that I am uneasy with the concept of healing surges.

Conceptually, I am not, but I do not like the way HS was actualized in 4e.

You just made an inexplicable claim that they somehow lead to a shorter adventuring day. I literally could not believe it.

Begs the question, "shorter than what?"

If you have resource X, and you require 1X per encounter, in the case XY (where Y indicates the amount of X you have per game day), Y determines the number of encounters you can successfully engage in per game day.

But Y could be as low as 0 or as high as infinity. The actual value of Y would then determine what sort of encounter limitations were built into the system.

(And, obviously, the usage of X is an average, so there will be some variance as to how much Y corresponds to encounters/day.) Make it possible to replenish X faster, and you can eliminate the limitation (i.e., treasure that grants a healing surge, etc.).



RC
 

As far as I'm aware, 4e expects four encounters in an adventuring day and the number of healing surges available are set to reflect that. It's not an arbitrary value. In fact 4e expects the same number of encounters per day as 3e.

I believe the designers of 3e did not take wands of cure light wounds into consideration in their calculations.
 

As far as I'm aware, 4e expects four encounters in an adventuring day and the number of healing surges available are set to reflect that. It's not an arbitrary value.

I agree with your first sentence, but question how you got from there to your second sentence. Unless there is some non-arbitrary reason to expect four encounters in an adventuring day, how is selecting that particular number anything other than arbitrary?

(I would say it was arbitrary in 3e, too.)


RC
 

I agree with your first sentence, but question how you got from there to your second sentence. Unless there is some non-arbitrary reason to expect four encounters in an adventuring day, how is selecting that particular number anything other than arbitrary?
Well the number of healing surges wouldn't be arbitrary but the number of encounters expected per day, that that value depends upon, might be.

However I would've thought that for both d20 editions WotC would've done some market research into typical session length. If they also know roughly how long a fight takes to resolve (for 3e's assumed single monster, or 4e's five), and the typical amount of time taken up with non-combat stuff, then it's possible to calculate the number of encounters that can fit into a session. Assume one day in the game equals one session, and you have a, not exact, but at least non-arbitrary value for number of encounters per day.

To assume one adventure = one session = one day is, I think, very old school. I get the impression that in OD&D, a session would typically be a single trip into the dungeon, with no spell recovery inside. I don't think players had even considered the 15MD back in the very early days of the hobby. Tournament games seemed to be the same then, one adventure = one session = one day.
 

Conceptually, I am not, but I do not like the way HS was actualized in 4e.



Begs the question, "shorter than what?"

If you have resource X, and you require 1X per encounter, in the case XY (where Y indicates the amount of X you have per game day), Y determines the number of encounters you can successfully engage in per game day.

But Y could be as low as 0 or as high as infinity. The actual value of Y would then determine what sort of encounter limitations were built into the system.

(And, obviously, the usage of X is an average, so there will be some variance as to how much Y corresponds to encounters/day.) Make it possible to replenish X faster, and you can eliminate the limitation (i.e., treasure that grants a healing surge, etc.).



RC

And thus, the more healing surges that you add to a character (or give a character access to, as you suggest), the more encounters that character can participate in. The 4e designers expected 4 encounters per day, but my group expects 6 - 12 encounters per day, so we use healing surges to meet that expectation (ways to replenish HS such as magical fonts, items and other features that provide surgeless healing, boons that grant the Durable feat, etc.).

In fact, if you also provide access to a bit of surgeless healing (but not quite as much as 3e had, because it didn't have the benefit of HS), my players can go as long as the situation or enviroment might need them to (but not forever).

If you want to have longer adventuring days but still have resource management (just like HP, daily spells, and Action Points provide), one good option is to add more healing surges to the game, not eliminate all of them or provide infinite, as suggested before.

This is one of the good ways that 4e started to eliminate 15-minute adventuring days. They took the vast number of daily resources (specifically with regards to spellcasters) and divided them into daily, encounter, and at-will. So instead of 6 spells per day, a wizard might of 2 spells per day, 2 spells per encounter, and 2 spells at-will (although the six spells likely share the same names as before, but are altered in power according to how often they can be cast, i.e. Magic Missile vs. Sleep). If someone wanted to go the rest of the way into eliminating the 15-min day, they might convert the remaining daily powers into at-will and encounter powers.

As far as healing surges go, I think they are basically 3e HP pools, but multiplied by 2 to 4 (depending on role). A party without surgeless healing (surgeless healing in fact, being all that was available to 3e characters, in the form of magical healing), might be able to do 1 or 2 fights in 3e, but would be able to do many more in 4e.
 

Just a question. Where is the presumption of 4 encounters per day in 4e? I hadn't come across that. In 3e it was fairly explicit since a Par EL encounter should use about 20-25% of party reasources, thus, 4 Par EL encounters per day was pretty much the standard assumption.

If you wanted more encounters, you could start dropping the EL per encounter, or, for less, simply raise the EL.

But, I was unaware of that baseline in 4e. Is it stated somewhere?
 

Just a question. Where is the presumption of 4 encounters per day in 4e? I hadn't come across that. In 3e it was fairly explicit since a Par EL encounter should use about 20-25% of party reasources, thus, 4 Par EL encounters per day was pretty much the standard assumption.

If you wanted more encounters, you could start dropping the EL per encounter, or, for less, simply raise the EL.?

Are we back to this? There is no presumption of 4 encounters per day in 3e. All they state in the DMG is how much of the party resources 4 encounters of ECL= party level would be expected to use. It is merely a guide to help the DM in pacing how much resources are used when designing an adventure.

The section on adventure design recommended that half of an adventure's are a combination of encounters above and below the party's level.

The section on encounter design discusses mixing status quo (no consideration of party level) with tailored (consideration of party level).
 

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