In Defense of the Theory of Dissociated Mechanics

[Raven Crowking]

Removed

 

[pawsplay]

Here's a puzzler -

The most simulationist mechanic in Mutants & Masterminds, hero points, is dissociative.

Is it? I was going to say, "That's true," but I'm not sure any more. If the character thinks, "Is there anything around here I can use?" and finds some acid, there's not much of a dissociation. Also, the primary use of HPs is for extra effort, which is not dissociative. I'm going to say HPs are only moderately dissociative. Further, dissociation is only likely to occur when the player deliberately chooses a metagame solution to a problem, and only briefly enough to "edit" the scene. Whatever the HP is used for is end-to-end consistent within the world.

I'd say HPs are a good example of how to include metagame elements that have only mild dissociative effects. I don't think most players stop feeling like Batman because they just happen to have something lucky happen of their own choosing.

 

[Imaro]

I think that they are. I am perfectly okay with something like a recharge representing an opportunity.

I would have no trouble with some of 4e's powers if they recharged in the same way, so that you had limited uses, and where the recharge represented opportunity.

Even "hitting someone really hard with a mace" can be measured by opportunity. After all, that is what critical hits do. Heck, that's what successful attack rolls do.

I don't think that this is an example of a dissociated mechanic.


RC

You see this is exactly why I find it disassociated as a mechanic... You and Wrecan just gave totally different explanations for this mechanic. He claimed it was resting tired energy reserves, you claim it represents opportunities for usage, and the book is silent on what a recharge actually is in-game. So what exactly is happening via the fictional game when a creatur recharges?

 

[pawsplay]

You see this is exactly why I find it disassociated as a mechanic... You and Wrecan just gave totally different explanations for this mechanic. He claimed it was resting tired energy reserves, you claim it represents opportunities for usage, and the book is silent on what a recharge actually is in-game. So what exactly is happening via the fictional game when a creatur recharges?

No one knows. It's completely up to the GM to fill in that information. That's one of the Alexandrians criticisms, one of the things that leans a mechanic toward dissociation.

EDIT: Someone give Imaro some XP for me.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I would have no trouble with some of 4e's powers if they recharged in the same way, so that you had limited uses, and where the recharge represented opportunity.

Even "hitting someone really hard with a mace" can be measured by opportunity. After all, that is what critical hits do. Heck, that's what successful attack rolls do.

What if the powers only had an opportunity to fire on a crit? What if, that opportunity let you pick one from a list? Could the list be more or less like 4E powers now (i.e. use a daily up in this circumstance, and it is gone) or would it need to be more a list of explicitly "critical" powers that let you pick a certain one each time. (Mongoose RQ II uses something analogous to this, BTW, though the "powers" aren't varied by character types.)

Just curious where the boundaries are, and if they are the same for you as other people. Were I to change it, I'd lean heavily towards something like encounter becoming 1/scene and daily becoming 1/adventure, myself.

 

[pawsplay]

What is the powers only had an opportunity to fire on a crit? What if, that opportunity let you pick one from a list? Could the list be more or less like 4E powers now (i.e. use a daily up in this circumstance, and it is gone) or would it need to be more a list of explicitly "critical" powers that let you pick a certain one each time. (Mongoose RQ II uses something analogous to this, BTW, though the "powers" aren't varied by character types.)

Just curious where the boundaries are, and if they are the same for you as other people. Were I to change it, I'd lean heavily towards something like encounter becoming 1/scene and daily becoming 1/adventure, myself.

In general, I would want the things that represent extra effort to be player choice (1/scene, for instance) and things that represented opportunity to be represented by opportunities (crits and other die rolls are good for that). Of course, there are crossover cases, but I think that preserves the congruence of player choice and PC motivation.

 

[Yesway Jose]

I think this is what I originally thought dissociated mechanics were, but now I don't think has anything to do with what can be easily imagined or not. What follows should not be taken as anything more than my attempt to work this out.

Does the player make the same choice as the PC?

Except that in many cases, we don't know exactly what the PC is doing.

Even since 3E, I believe it was stated that 1 turn of combat is some undeclared mix of different feints, blocks and swings, and that PCs are acting the entire turn and that initiative is an abstraction of your most consequential action in that turn. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Even if we do think we know what the PC is doing, he/she doesn't actually exist, so it's technically our perception of how the PC is interacting with the fiction.

That's why I think it's OK to use the definition of disassociation from what we can easily imagine the PC is/would do?

 

[Raven Crowking]

Removed

 

[Raven Crowking]

Removed

 

[ThirdWizard]

Okay what is going on here? I thought we had a working definition!

Disassociated: A mechanic that isn't a choice of the PC but a choice of the player.

I thought that was the working definition. If I'm wrong, I'm looking at this whole thread in a different light, and it is not as interesting.

And, you can talk all day about how 4e is full of disassociated rules, but if my definition is right, its just kinda sorta non-simulationist in reality, teetering on the edge of disassociation.

If 4e was really gung ho about disassociated mechanics you would do things like roll your Religion skill to determine if you know the high priest the first time you meet him in game, or roll Stealth to determine if the hallway is dark enough to let you hide in it, or your Perception roll is high enough then treasure is there because of your high roll.

Those are moderate dissociation mechanics as far as I'm concerned. But, they'd probably give simulationists a heart attack.