Powergamer Issues

[Kobold Boots]

The DM understands that I have good judgment, and my character will be fine in the party. In addition, pistols in our campaign are 1d8 damage, 20/x4 weapons that fire against normal AC, not touch ac, so it's just an exotic crossbow effectively.

The problem player uses dozens of sourcebooks to create characters. His resourcefulness is the source of the problem. By restricting him to the core book, the Dm and I figured he would be forced to play something balanced. At this point, I'm not sure anyone trusts him to use good judgment when it comes to 3rd party sourcebooks and optional rulesets.

Without knowing anything about the group dynamic at the table and just reading the above:

1. The DM is showing favoritism. It may be for good reason, and you may be an exceptional player well deserving of it, but it is favoritism.

2. A player with the time to scour over dozens of sourcebooks is a rather dedicated player. The issue isn't with the player but with the DM that allows dozens of sourcebooks he's not familiar with.

3. This said, I think you're on the right path by restricting the content that can be worked from, but I think that it needs to be more uniform. The DM needs to choose sourcebooks that he is comfortable with, officially sanction them and let anyone use them, including the problem player.

The DM is the throttle on judgment in most campaigns, and if you have a really motivated player it can be the hardest thing a DM has to deal with. It helps when they can connect to that motivated player and spend more time working over their ideas.

The kind of resourcefulness you're describing is what I've seen in kids that have picked up the games in high school. The ones that really dove in and became the D&D geeks ended up being the best combat DMs simply because they had subject expertise, but early in their development they too were munchkins.

Hopefully this helps. Fair warning to the posting crowd though, unless someone comes into my house and breaks stuff, blatantly disrespect me, has no etiquette, or causes problems with the wife, I don't recommend getting rid of people.

KB

 

[Starbuck_II]

To add some more information about the situation, the rest of the party is composed of the following:

Warforged Dragonfire Adept, Lightning type
Aasimar Gunslinger, Pistol style
Elven Wizard, Enchantment specialist
Human Monk, Flaming Fists style
Myself, Aasimar Vitalist (psionic healer from Dreamscarred Press).

The problem player has since changed his character, AGAIN, to a Swashbuckler (from Tome of Secrets (think Fighter with only 5 feats and 7d6 sneak attack). Apparently he plans to use weapons like Nets, but beyond that I have no idea.

I have yet to see the actual build.

The first session is tomorrow. I will allow him to play, under the condition that I review his character beforehand. If he is a good player at the table and his character is in line with the power level of everyone else, then he can continue to play. I myself am frustrated at the level of effort myself and the Dm have had to put into telling this player to play nice.

If he does not play nice, I will not hesitate to ask him to leave.

Seems unfair to restrict someone if no one else is restricted.

The power level? The only way he can be close to the power level is if he plays a mid-caster ike Summoner, Inquisitor, or Magus.

You have 3 tier 3, one Tier 1, one Tier 4. He has to be anywhere between Tier 3-1 to be balanced in the party.

If you issue with the Swashbuckler is he is too weak, limiting him to Core won't help.

 

[Chronologist]

The player in question decided to play a Monk 2 / Rogue 4. He's found feats that allow him to deal non-lethal damage with sneak attack, and inflict twice as much damage with his sneak attack. That, plus his monk style feats, makes him a VERY effective character. Highest damage by far, and with the highest AC and saves around. He's about Tier 2. He made his backstory something about not having access to healing magic in his homeland, and I think he's trying to use that as justification for his extremely high defenses and damage output.

The Wizard is a new player, plus she only uses Enchantment and one or two Evocation and Illusion spells, so she's about Tier 3 (essentially a Beguiler). Plus, the Monk is switching to a pure Fighter specializing in heavy blades, so he'll be at around the same power level as well.

Now, aside from Tiers, he did a decent job of roleplaying. I myself talked too much, so I think he deserves to keep playing.

If he abuses sneak attack in a crazy way, the DM has assured me that they will have a "chat". Hopefully this will resolve the issue.

Thank you all for your help in this matter. I've gotten a large number of different opinions, and I think that the best option is to continue to allow him to play what he wishes, as long as it is in accordance with what the Dm feels is appropriate. For now, I am content and eager to continue the campaign.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Make sure he could afford all those feats, it sounds like he's a Master of Many Styles Monk. Note that unless he entered monk at level 3+, he bascially needed to spend his Monk 1 feat on a style feat itself, not the other 2 in that particular tree. MoMS gets to ignore pre-reqs on bonus style feats, but has to actually have the style feat still.

The feat tree he's decided to take -- Sap Adept, Sap Master, and possibly Knockout Artist are very feat intensive, only benefit when he does NONlethal bludgeoning damage, and at least in the case of the first two (not sure of Knockout Artist) only works on a flatfooted foe. Not a flanked foe, not a foe that's been feinted. Flatfooted only. Also, Sap Master requires SA +3d6, so I don't know how he has it already, he may have "made a mistake" there.

But even with all that stuff, sorry. Tier 2 does not mean "lots of damage," and I assure you a Fighter or Barbarian with only a single feat (Power Attack) could be doing as much or nearly as much damage as him without those annoying restrictions. He is not tier 2, he'll be lucky to be tier 4 if he optimizes heavily enough.

 

[Chronologist]

He does not have Knockout artist yet, but the Dm has stated that we will level at the end of the next session (we defeated 10 CR 7 encounters in one session, with no rest. Woo hoo healing). Presumably he will take Sap Master as his level 7 feat.

Sap Adept gives 2 damage per sneak attack die. Knockout Artist gives 1 damage per die. 1d6 averages to 3.5, so every die of sneak attack turns into 6.5 damage, nearly doubling his damage. Depending on your interpretation of Sap Master, that increases the damage per die into either 10 points, or 14 points. Since the damage bonuses increase based on dice rolled, and sap master doubles the dice rolled, I'm thinking the latter.

Does no-one have a problem with that? That a sneak attack does as much damage as a Disintegrate? Before adding strength, weapon, magical, or critical damage of course. Throw in Flurry of blows for 2 attacks in a round and that's a lethal combination right there. One player grapples an enemy, the rogue does ridiculous damage to it, the end. The only disadvantage is that it's non-lethal damage. Other than that, you bet he's doing more damage than your average barbarian. He's not even adding stat bonus to the mix, so he could cheese up Power Attack and a two-handed weapon like the best of them.

What's worse, he's not limited to that. He is level 6 and has a 23+ armor class, depending on what he's using. He has more skill points than half of the rest of the party combined. He has improved evasion. All his saves are excellent. He has rogue talents. He has trapfinding. He's the tank, DPS, and skillmonkey all wrapped up into one.

So yeah, he's Tier 2. He can't crowd control, but he's got more versatility than any Tier 3, and is damn good at what he does. Besides, Tiers don't make a lick of difference when initiative rolls along and he instantly knocks you out with a flurry of strikes. Then, all the spells in the world won't save you.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Your opinion on "power" is extremely flawed...

First off, while it SHOULD work like the player assumes (IMO) if you read closely, unlike Uncanny Dodge / Improved UD, gaining Evasion when you already have it does NOT grant you Improved Evasion, there is no text that says so. Again, I think that's really dumb and Imp. Evasion really isn't that great anyway, but them's the rules. He probably legitimately was mistaken there, as I got tripped up by that recently myself, it's a really illogical RAW thing.

What was his point buy / stats? Monk is atrociously multiple ability dependent, and the only way he has AC 23 at level 6 even with god stats is the mage armor spell, quite frankly. So his "crazy" AC is one dispel away from being garbage.

Next: Grapple in PF was heavily nerfed. Being grappled no longer means you lose dex to AC. You CAN be flanked, but grapple's just keeping you from moving out of flank in that case. Even if it was following 3.5 grapple rules, sap adept/master STILL would not work because being grappled caused you to lose dex to AC, NOT be flatfooted. Again, "flatfooted" is a very specific case of "lose dex to AC" that is rare and hard to come by. This is another reason I'm trying to assure you, his feat chain really isn't that scary. The only way to reliably have flatfooted foes every round in PF involves the Shatter Defenses feat. Which at BAB +6 and his multiclassing, he won't have for a long while. Not to mention that's another 3 feats (Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, and SD) and if you want to use it without wasting actions on intimidate every other round, yet another feat on Enforcer. Did I mention his build is crazy feat intensive yet?

I'm not sure on the interaction of Sap Master and Sap Adept, but I believe the intent was that Sap Master does not double the +2's from Sap Adept.

I also don't get how he's flurrying on the first round reliably. If he waits for a foe to move up to him, the foe isn't flatfooted, unless it happens to come near where he's hidden, when such a scenario is even possible. If he's getting a lot of surprise rounds for being sneaky, in order to flurry he needs to move into melee which either means sacrificing a sneak attack or using a partial charge and taking an AC penalty before knowing if he's gonna get to act in the first round before the foe he's just pissed off.

In conclusion: He's blowing a TON of feats and relying on very high ability scores in order to do moderate damage under very specific conditions while sporting decent AC and I'm guessing utterly terrible hp. He is absolutely not overpowered, and the methods the DM has to screw with him are legion.


Let's look at a sample level 6 Human Fighter. He starts off with 15-16 str and +2 racial, plus his level 4 point goes there. Relevant magic items here will be a +1 greatsword (note your "OP" player needs a grossly overpriced Amulet of Mighty Fists or to beg the spellcasters for a buff to match this), +1 full plate (yeah, it slows him down right now, next level it won't), and str +2. None of the other items matter for this comparison.

The Fighter thus has Str 20-21 (+5), Weapon Training I, and Armor Training I. The only feats I'm factoring into this will be Weapon Focus, Weapon Specializion, and Power Attack (which he uses all the time, cause...it's good). His other feats can be whatever. Assuming he has at least a 14 dex to maximize his AC...

AC: 10 + 10 armor +2 dex = 22
Attack: Greatsword +12/+7 (2d6 +17 damage, 19-20/x2)
Average damage per swing: 24*
*It's also important to note, ALL of that damage doubles on a crit, which this fighter threatens twice as often as the monk/rogue, and for whom all that SA damage would NOT be multiplied

How does your monk/rogue's attack and damage, under absolutely optimal conditions, compare? This isn't even utlizing all the tools the fighter has at his disposal and is limited to stuff a PF newbie who's only spent an hour skimming the book would likely pick. If your pal's "optimized" build can't crush those numbers, color me unimpressed.

 

[Angrydad]

I'm torn here. On the one hand, this forum rarely fails to apall me with the sheer intolerance and animus directed towards those vile players who want their characters to be powerful.

On the other hand, this particular player represents an extreme that makes what I would normally dismiss as petty labeling seem eminiently justified. He is not simply optimizing his character within the bounds of the rules, he is flat-out pulling some crap. Either his grasp of the rules does not match his powergaming aspirations, or he is a dishonest person.

In final analysis, I posit that even if he were totally unconcerned with optimization, if he is as needy and selfish as the OP suggests, that is sufficient to make his presence undesirable. Be direct about this with the DM. Do not suffer discomfort over the long term just to avoid the short term discomfort of confrontation.

I'm pretty much in agreement with you on this. I too find a lot of people on the forum to be rather harsh on players who want powerful builds in campaigns more oriented towards role-playing or whatnot, but this guy sounds like he's not just going for the best possible within the rules type build. There's a limit to the amount of BSing one can get past the DM. If the player won't agree to play by the community's rules, then kick him/her out.

My wife is one of those people who always wants to be a powerful character, but the party and I make sure that she is doing so within the constraints of the rules we have all agreed on, thus every player is able to powergame equally. It works out for the most part.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Sap Adept gives 2 damage per sneak attack die. Knockout Artist gives 1 damage per die. 1d6 averages to 3.5, so every die of sneak attack turns into 6.5 damage, nearly doubling his damage. Depending on your interpretation of Sap Master, that increases the damage per die into either 10 points, or 14 points. Since the damage bonuses increase based on dice rolled, and sap master doubles the dice rolled, I'm thinking the latter.

So when he is lucky enough to hit a guy flat footed, the dude is knocked out. Seems fine.

Does no-one have a problem with that? That a sneak attack does as much damage as a Disintegrate? Before adding strength, weapon, magical, or critical damage of course. Throw in Flurry of blows for 2 attacks in a round and that's a lethal combination right there. One player grapples an enemy, the rogue does ridiculous damage to it, the end. The only disadvantage is that it's non-lethal damage. Other than that, you bet he's doing more damage than your average barbarian. He's not even adding stat bonus to the mix, so he could cheese up Power Attack and a two-handed weapon like the best of them.

He can't get Flury of Blows. That is where you aren't understanding.
Grapples don't flat foot a target.
Average Barbarians do much more consistently.
Remember Rage adds +4 Str. And proficient with 2 handed weapons.

What's worse, he's not limited to that. He is level 6 and has a 23+ armor class, depending on what he's using. He has more skill points than half of the rest of the party combined. He has improved evasion. All his saves are excellent. He has rogue talents. He has trapfinding. He's the tank, DPS, and skillmonkey all wrapped up into one.

Wait, Evasion doesn't stack. So he can't have Improved evasion.
Unless you are omitting important houserules (not the actual way the rules work).

So yeah, he's Tier 2. He can't crowd control, but he's got more versatility than any Tier 3, and is damn good at what he does. Besides, Tiers don't make a lick of difference when initiative rolls along and he instantly knocks you out with a flurry of strikes. Then, all the spells in the world won't save you.

No, Tier 3-4 at most. Maybe Tier 3 as he does have decent skills. But doing damage makes you Tier 4 at most (stuck in one role).

#1 Master of Many Styles Monk trades Flurry of Blows away.
If he doesn't of MoMS Monk he likely can't qualify for any Styles (except Turtle but turtle sucks sadly).
He can only get 1st Style Feat then any 1 other feat in tree (he can skip 2nd in tree and get third). He could get two Style feats but they are better with 2 in tree than 2 1st ones.
#2 23 AC at lv 6 is not that high.
Most people can get that at lv 5 easily: +1 Ring, +1 Dusty rose, +1 NA +3 Dex +5 Armor (+1 Chain Shirt) +2 Shield (Heavy Shields give this) =23 AC at level 4.
All of that is affordable.
Heck, you have money left over, you could get the Shield to be +1 as well.
#3 If you are worried about 23 AC at lv 6, I'm worried about your AC. How low are we talking here?
#4: He needs Enforcer (nonlethal shakens targets)/Shatter Defenses feat (shaken foes treated as Flatfooted)
Without those he gets his "super" damage 1/combat.

 

[enrious]

Next: Grapple in PF was heavily nerfed. Being grappled no longer means you lose dex to AC. You CAN be flanked, but grapple's just keeping you from moving out of flank in that case. Even if it was following 3.5 grapple rules, sap adept/master STILL would not work because being grappled caused you to lose dex to AC, NOT be flatfooted. Again, "flatfooted" is a very specific case of "lose dex to AC" that is rare and hard to come by. This is another reason I'm trying to assure you, his feat chain really isn't that scary. The only way to reliably have flatfooted foes every round in PF involves the Shatter Defenses feat. Which at BAB +6 and his multiclassing, he won't have for a long while. Not to mention that's another 3 feats (Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, and SD) and if you want to use it without wasting actions on intimidate every other round, yet another feat on Enforcer. Did I mention his build is crazy feat intensive yet?

I think you and I have differing views on when a rogue can employ sneak attack and how it matters to the discussed build.

The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.

Thus, to my understanding it is not simply flanking and flatfooted, but it's flanking and every single circumstance that denies the opponent a dex bonus to AC which includes the flatfooted condition.

Thus, Feint would trigger it. Thus in 3.5, a non-grappling rogue would get it on a grappled foe.

Unless there's some ruling that I overlooked that limits it to the flatfooted condition and flanking?

Note that Sap Adept merely says when you nonlethal sneak attack damage, the flatfooted requirement is for Sap Master.

For the most part, I agree with you (especially if he's not flanking and is forced to rely on improved feint/shatter defense to get the benefit of the feats) - but wanted to get clarification on the sneak attack/flatfooted thing.

I'm not sure on the interaction of Sap Master and Sap Adept, but I believe the intent was that Sap Master does not double the +2's from Sap Adept.

Reading them again and understanding how rare the Sap Master usage should be (it must be flatfooted foes, not merely ones who've lost dex bonus), I'd allow them to stack.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Enrious, I was talking about Sap Adept/Master in regards to needing flatfooted the entire time. I'm aware that regular sneak attack works in lots of other scenarios, but the OP is concerned about the "super damage" his fellow player's feat chain is giving him, so I was dissecting that, specifically.