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Legens&Lore: Monte Cook takes over

I'd greatly dispute that as being demonstrable.

The root of 1d20+mods vs DC doesn't go far at all in undoing the rather dramatic mechanical overhaul of the bulk of system in establishing what those mods and DCs are.

Every class has the exact same +1/2 BAB
But every class has something like a "BAB".

No skill points / Every class / every skill +1/2 level
But every class still has skills! AnNd there are even class skills and there is a skill focus feat!

monsters and PCs are mechanically different than PCs (this alone is HUGE)
But PCs and monsters were already different before! I couldn't multiclass into Aberreration and Outsider. Monster Hit Dice had some similarities to classes, but they were very different in many aspects.

And there were NPC classes, which deliberately meant a mechanical difference between "heroic" PCs and non-heroic NPCs.

DCs based on character level, not intrinsic to the item or situation
I'm sure I could go on and on, but frankly, that already creates a night and day difference that simply rolling a D20 doesn't put a dent into. And it has simply been too long since I played 4E to recall more shooting from the hip here.
But you still roll against a static DC with a d20 + modifier.

Sure, there were significant differences, but there were also a lot of similarities, and it is subjective which one you focus on.

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I think Monte sold out. :p

Okay, maybe not. I have some skepticism on this, because change is scary. I really don't know where this is going and if I'll like it. I guess it's wait and see.
 

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Mearls has brought back his old friend and former employer to design 5E.

And it seems like a smart move.

Now, if we want to wonder....

*Are we going to see some 4E products from cook in the meantime?

*Is 5E (or super 4E or ultimate D&D or whatever they call it) being done on an accelerated basis? An anoucement at D&DXP?

*Have they already been working together for a while?

*Monte is more of an ideas guy. Who reings him in and does the cruncy stuff on the team? Mearls himself?

It should be interesting.
 

Just let me throw this in, when talking about what 5e might become. On our blog someone wrote that he things 5e might get a modular approach. One very simple core system (like Mearls musings are) and optional packages for further additions, like skills and whatever. Or even, and that sounds much more tempting to me, doing all the specific stuff for different campaign settings as modules. Like a set for modern, another for Eberron.

I find the idea of a common subsystem and additions for settings pretty interesting, as long as e.g. the fantasy settings will not differ totally. But the idea of having optional rules for everything is pretty scary. Sounds like every single group is playing by different rules then and you have to negotiate rules before starting even to build a character.

Modular does not necessarily mean more complex. In fact, making something modular is a good way to reduce overall complexity and specific complexity (i.e. the complexity that you actually deal with at any given moment).

I'll grant you that in the context of, "filling page count," modular in the past has often meant, "long list of options, some of which don't work very well or don't belong on the list, and thus create all kinds of trouble." So history gives reason to be cautious about the attempt.

The trick is providing modular hooks at key, important points--and not all over the place simply to be modular. Object-oriented software developers learned this 20 years ago (after over a decade of fighting with it): You don't make everything so that you can swap it out. Many things, you want them to be one way and stay that way. All that fussing around trying to make everything modular just make it difficult to swap when you do want to swap. Instead, you pick those key things that are supposed to be modular--and then you make them incredibly easy to understand and swap.

An easy example in D&D might be the complexity of the weapon lists. You might have a base option Weapon B in the base game, much like the Red Box list, where you have 20 or so of the most iconic weapons, and damage ranges and abilities don't vary much. Then you have ultra simple option Weapon S where weapons are just color, all do the same damage, and about the only changes are in melee versus ranged. Then finally you have complex option Weapon C where the list is rather comprehensive, with real difference in mechanical effect, divided into groups, etc.

If the designers decide this is important--if--then the rest of the system touching weapons needs to work with all three versions. And you don't blend the versions (short of a player perhaps using Weapon C to get an idea for his color while using Weapon S). You don't, for example, have certain weapons in C doing greater damage to "large" creatures, since that effect is not easily replicable in S and B without skewing expected results. (That is, you don't design your creatures such that you need this effect in weapons to make the whole system work. You might have something analogous in flavor in the weapons which doesn't touch the monsters themselves--e.g. how many hit points they get.)

Like, "exception-based design," it is not going to work to say, "modular-based design," and then have everyone go wild with exceptions or modules. The art is in the choosing.
 
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At the end of the day, I suppose it's true, no one is going to convince anyone of anything.

I look at 3e, particularly later 3.5 and see pretty much everything, at least in proto form, that we see in 4e. I'm honestly not seeing such a big difference between the editions.

About the biggest change that I think 4e has made was to break the discrete "turn" that characterizes much of pre-4e combat. In 4e, it is pretty usual that any given character will act two, three (or possibly more) times each round, in addition to the actions that character takes on his own turn.

And, a number of those actions are not triggered by someone else doing something, such as an Opportunity Attack/AOO. Many of them are actually intentionally initiated by the player him/herself.

That's probably the hugest change of all as far as actual play at the table goes. That's something that didn't exist in previous editions virtually at all.
 

I'd love to see a version of AD&D back in print. Since WotC is understandably reluctant to have multiple versions of D&D in print at the same time, I think they'd have to publish a new version of AD&D without the D&D name on it.

There already *IS* a version of AD&D in print. It's called 'Amazon.com'.

Amazon.com: Used and New: Dungeon Master Guide (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, 2nd Edition, Core Rulebook/2160)

There you go. Used 2nd edition AD&D Dungeon Master's Guides ranging from $1.99 to $6.00.

THIS is exactly why WotC will not EVER reprint (at least in printed book form) another version of AD&D. Because if you can buy copies of the original game for $1.99 and there six pages of these books available that nobody seems to be picking up... that tells us there is NO MARKET for this game. Sure, a few of you might pick it up either as a novelty or because there's a handful of you still playing 2nd edition... but there is not now nor will there ever be ENOUGH of you to warrant an actual reprint of the game that will turn WotC a profit worth going through the hassle to do it in the first place.
 


There already *IS* a version of AD&D in print. It's called 'Amazon.com'.

Amazon.com: Used and New: Dungeon Master Guide (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, 2nd Edition, Core Rulebook/2160)

There you go. Used 2nd edition AD&D Dungeon Master's Guides ranging from $1.99 to $6.00.

THIS is exactly why WotC will not EVER reprint (at least in printed book form) another version of AD&D. Because if you can buy copies of the original game for $1.99 and there six pages of these books available that nobody seems to be picking up... that tells us there is NO MARKET for this game. Sure, a few of you might pick it up either as a novelty or because there's a handful of you still playing 2nd edition... but there is not now nor will there ever be ENOUGH of you to warrant an actual reprint of the game that will turn WotC a profit worth going through the hassle to do it in the first place.


Where to start. "In print" means something different than you think. "2nd" edition isn't a good example and I'm actually surprised at the $6 high end. Something being "in print" also shows support to the community of gamers who prefer that edition, something WotC and Mearls have been espousing with their big tent claims. Having an edition "in print" also means there's the likelihood of support (doing so under the OGL guarentees it). Having it "in print" these days can be fully-fledged as being hardbound and in FLGSs or as no-cost and easy as having it available through POD sites, even if only as a perfect bound trade paperback. Heck, a lot of folks would settle for minimal support in the form of 1E AD&D PDF sales, which has been done before, and since the claim for stopping PDF sales was always about pirated sales of the most recent edition, there's no real reason not to make them available again for earlier edtions.
 
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This is very true, and quite sad. In all honesty, I think the chances of WotC ever producing my ideal version of D&D are incredibly slim - they'll either parse out the core to an extent that you need many supplements to meaningfully play (even 4e was too limiting in the first three books, IMO), or they'll package every rules supplement as a "must-have". Either way, the game bloats in a manner that just doesn't interest me.
Just out of curiosity, why does your "ideal" game have to be called D&D, and why does it have to be produced by WotC?

I find myself fervently wishing that 4E was not D&D - that way, it would not be subject to WotC's crummy legacy policies as soon as 5E comes along, and it wouldn't have so many "any edition but 4E"-philes pawing at it as if it were a sex kitten in a strip joint. Doesn't anybody buy the actual product instead of the damned brand, any more?

Again, I cannot agree with you there. There were large flavor changes and mechanical changes that were at least as large in the 3e to 4e shift that did a lot to shift that flavor. I don't see nearly as much preservation of core mechanical principles of 1e/2e or even 3e in the transition from 3e to 4e as I can see from 1e/2e to 3e.
I think that really depends more on how you interpreted 1e than on 3.X or 4E themselves, to be honest. 1e was pretty fuzzy about whether it was an attempt to make a tightly written game or a system to simulate an imagined world. 3.X went pretty clearly with the latter, but tried to get more coherent and complete rules to do so; 4E goes with the former and goes with tight, coherent rules mechanisms without worrying too much about the "fit" to the world (which is present, but not as the top priority). If you saw 1e as simulating a world, you will see the continuity to 3.X; if you saw 1e as primarily a game system, you will see the continuity to 4E.
 

Just out of curiosity, why does your "ideal" game have to be called D&D, and why does it have to be produced by WotC?

I find myself fervently wishing that 4E was not D&D - that way, it would not be subject to WotC's crummy legacy policies as soon as 5E comes along, and it wouldn't have so many "any edition but 4E"-philes pawing at it as if it were a sex kitten in a strip joint. Doesn't anybody buy the actual product instead of the damned brand, any more?

I don't know. For me the problem is I like the first three editions, it is a great go-to fantasy game, and I really don't like the 4th edition. I just want to see something like the old product back. Even if 4E wasn't part of the D&D line, it wouldn't appeal to me. Just not my cup of tea. It just feels like they focused the product to the point where a lot of the existing customer base got turned off (but a narrow band was really into it). It is their call and I don't think they owe me anything as a consumer. But that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on which edition of D&D I like and where I would like to see them go.

I think that really depends more on how you interpreted 1e than on 3.X or 4E themselves, to be honest. 1e was pretty fuzzy about whether it was an attempt to make a tightly written game or a system to simulate an imagined world. 3.X went pretty clearly with the latter, but tried to get more coherent and complete rules to do so; 4E goes with the former and goes with tight, coherent rules mechanisms without worrying too much about the "fit" to the world (which is present, but not as the top priority). If you saw 1e as simulating a world, you will see the continuity to 3.X; if you saw 1e as primarily a game system, you will see the continuity to 4E.

To some extent I agree with this. But I think 4E went too far. Is just too inspired by things like GNS theory. I don't want a "coherent" D&D system. I want one that appeals to a broad range of tastes.
 

Just out of curiosity, why does your "ideal" game have to be called D&D, and why does it have to be produced by WotC?

It doesn't, but...

1) I have a sentimental attachment to the name D&D, because it was my first RPG and because it's been so important to me over the years. I would prefer the current version of D&D to be as close to my ideal of good as possible.

2) It's much easier to find players for D&D (and perhaps Pathfinder) than for any other game. So, again, there is a significant advantage to D&D being 'good'.

However, if it came to it, if there was another game that did the job, it would make a good substitute. However at the moment there actually isn't anything that quite hits the spot.
 

Into the Woods

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