Why would it be so hard to balance magic items without pluses? All they would have to do is balance magic items like they do feats.
I agree 100% with Monte's article and I believe going that route will bring the excitement back to magic items.
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Legand & Lore: Magic Items
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Why would it be so hard to balance magic items without pluses? All they would have to do is balance magic items like they do feats.
I agree 100% with Monte's article and I believe going that route will bring the excitement back to magic items.
Scribble
First Post
Not about the pluses. He's talking about decoupling the magic item power from what the game takes into consideration when balancing PC power level vrs Challenges and such regardless of being + x.
Which is fine- I'm all for, but at the same time I'd like a system that allows you to see what adding X item does to the power level of the PCs.
Aenghus
Explorer
I have mixed feelings. The 4e magic item rules are in part a reaction to the old magic items of 1e and 2e which swung wildly from awful (cursed items that could eg kill the wearer) to useless to wildly overpowered. The latter category could in the worst cases make innate abilies from class, race etc obsolete.
I really don't want to get back to the bad old days where the DM's favourite got a Belt of Giant Strength while others were luck to get a Murlynd's Spoon. I am exaggerating for effect here, I realise that this example taken literally is bad DMing, but the baseline expectations of the game have moved away from this sort of disaster and I don't want them to swing back in a reaction to "boring" magic items.
I prefer PCs being dependent on their class abilities over those of magic items. More powerful magic items threaten this. I can see a place for them for essentials characters, who can be boring at high levels without some extra powers from magic items.
But then i prefer old style complicated 4e PCs and I'm afraid the current design team are moving away from them.
I really don't want to get back to the bad old days where the DM's favourite got a Belt of Giant Strength while others were luck to get a Murlynd's Spoon. I am exaggerating for effect here, I realise that this example taken literally is bad DMing, but the baseline expectations of the game have moved away from this sort of disaster and I don't want them to swing back in a reaction to "boring" magic items.
I prefer PCs being dependent on their class abilities over those of magic items. More powerful magic items threaten this. I can see a place for them for essentials characters, who can be boring at high levels without some extra powers from magic items.
But then i prefer old style complicated 4e PCs and I'm afraid the current design team are moving away from them.
NPCs do have (assumed) magical gear; presumably about 2 pluses less, making them about 25 times less valuable, making them worth a rounding error in the next dragon's treasure hoard. *waves hands* It's non-consequential to the story.
Why would you even bother saying "you find 3 +1 swords" to a paragon level party?
I guess the reason that I like the idea of the inherent bonus system is that I do think it makes it a bit easier to make magic items more meaningful, and easier to balance in many respects. It helps to divorce items from character advancement and makes the properties be just added little bonuses. The difference between say having the ability to make your sword deal fire damage and having it deal fire damage AND negate X points of fire resistance is much easier to determine than the difference between a +1 sword that deals fire and negates fire resist and a +2 sword that deals fire damage. (Hopefully that made some sense).
I think what I would want to see is magic items as an avenue of versatility rather than pure power. So that longsword of frost that you found when you were 3rd level might still be usuable when you face the level 20 fire elemental. PCs can collect more items that might be useful in a given situation without having to worry about the level of the item. A +1 longsword of frost won't really help you all that much at level 20 most of the time because of the bonuses that you'd be giving up just to get that little bit of cold damage.
That being said, I would also be fine with simply doing away with enhancement bonuses (both inherent and magic) and balancing the system that way. Either way, I think the idea is to not make items represent a certain power level per se (i.e. +5 implies an epic item) and by doing so, you bring back some of the magic in the magic item. As it stands now, if I were to tell my players that they found an "immovable rod" their only question would be "How much can we disenchant it for". In their eyes, it just wouldn't be worth keeping around for those few occasions when it would prove useful. As always though, every group is different.
I think what I would want to see is magic items as an avenue of versatility rather than pure power. So that longsword of frost that you found when you were 3rd level might still be usuable when you face the level 20 fire elemental. PCs can collect more items that might be useful in a given situation without having to worry about the level of the item. A +1 longsword of frost won't really help you all that much at level 20 most of the time because of the bonuses that you'd be giving up just to get that little bit of cold damage.
That being said, I would also be fine with simply doing away with enhancement bonuses (both inherent and magic) and balancing the system that way. Either way, I think the idea is to not make items represent a certain power level per se (i.e. +5 implies an epic item) and by doing so, you bring back some of the magic in the magic item. As it stands now, if I were to tell my players that they found an "immovable rod" their only question would be "How much can we disenchant it for". In their eyes, it just wouldn't be worth keeping around for those few occasions when it would prove useful. As always though, every group is different.
I don't like the +X item system, and would love to be rid of it. Before 4e came out, it was one of my biggest hopes for the system, that they might ditch all the +X items.
When I read a story, I don't see a new item every 3 pages, which is what it feels like I have to do in 4e. I do like the options that magic items bring to the table. I think these should become traits, rather than part of the magic item system. Instead of a lightning weapon, you might have the trait to wreath your weapon in lightning. Instead of Rushing Cleats, you might gain a trait at level 7 that lets you increase your forced movement.
Once the current item system is merged into character advancement as traits rather than items, this would free up the magic items for things the DM wants to reward the party with, instead of things a player needs for his character to function.
In my ideal world, magic items would be more story driven and often temporary. The sultan might lend you his magic carpet to go save his daughter. The vampire lord can only be truly destroyed with the Wooden Sword of Esmindix, which disintegrates when the vampire lord is slain. The Shard of Nekrotep is a gift from the eldritch dragon, and will guide you to the lair of the necromancer, hiding your presence from his all seeing eye, but you have 7 days to find and kill him before the shard is drained of its magic.
Similarly (again in my ideal world), gold and riches would not be a system requirement for a campaign or levels either. You may start at level 1 as a merchant prince or a duchess, you might own a fleet of ships, or a mansion. Or you may be a 17th level devout who tithes all his coin, a monk who refuses any wealth, or a scoundrel who gambles away all his gold at every opportunity. The system should neither penalize nor reward you for these choices. It's all part of the story, and should be under DM purview.
When I read a story, I don't see a new item every 3 pages, which is what it feels like I have to do in 4e. I do like the options that magic items bring to the table. I think these should become traits, rather than part of the magic item system. Instead of a lightning weapon, you might have the trait to wreath your weapon in lightning. Instead of Rushing Cleats, you might gain a trait at level 7 that lets you increase your forced movement.
Once the current item system is merged into character advancement as traits rather than items, this would free up the magic items for things the DM wants to reward the party with, instead of things a player needs for his character to function.
In my ideal world, magic items would be more story driven and often temporary. The sultan might lend you his magic carpet to go save his daughter. The vampire lord can only be truly destroyed with the Wooden Sword of Esmindix, which disintegrates when the vampire lord is slain. The Shard of Nekrotep is a gift from the eldritch dragon, and will guide you to the lair of the necromancer, hiding your presence from his all seeing eye, but you have 7 days to find and kill him before the shard is drained of its magic.
Similarly (again in my ideal world), gold and riches would not be a system requirement for a campaign or levels either. You may start at level 1 as a merchant prince or a duchess, you might own a fleet of ships, or a mansion. Or you may be a 17th level devout who tithes all his coin, a monk who refuses any wealth, or a scoundrel who gambles away all his gold at every opportunity. The system should neither penalize nor reward you for these choices. It's all part of the story, and should be under DM purview.
Its not going to be that easy to get rid of +X items. Sure you can fix the maths of the system so they aren't required, but magic items need to be powerful. Well at least some magic items need to be powerful, it is part of the genre. We have d20 game mechanics, some types of effects are going to be hard to describe with out +X effects.
Desigining magic items is going to be a lot more work. But if they do it right, it will be more interesting.
Good luck.
catastrophic
First Post
Yeah, I feel as if people are reading a lot of good design ideas into an article which barely even hints at them being implemented.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
I love this idea intensely, and want to have its babies. It meshes with a lot of what I've been saying on ENWorld since about 2008: Magic items should be unpredictable rewards, added on top of your character, not part of your character.
I like random extra magic items, that serve as sauce on already robust characters, where the DM can plant them, or the dice can determine them, and then see what happens.
In 4e, I've been using Inherent Bonuses and rolling on 2e treasure tables. THIS HAS BEEN AWESOME. So much more fun than fulfilling a player's wish list.
If you'd like your father's ancestral sword to be a special item, that is awesome, but that is not a reward...that is part of your character. Magic items as rewards are awesome. That's what I want to hand out as a DM, and what I want to get as a player.
I like random extra magic items, that serve as sauce on already robust characters, where the DM can plant them, or the dice can determine them, and then see what happens.
In 4e, I've been using Inherent Bonuses and rolling on 2e treasure tables. THIS HAS BEEN AWESOME. So much more fun than fulfilling a player's wish list.
If you'd like your father's ancestral sword to be a special item, that is awesome, but that is not a reward...that is part of your character. Magic items as rewards are awesome. That's what I want to hand out as a DM, and what I want to get as a player.
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AbdulAlhazred
Legend
I think it might have been awkwardly put but the idea is nice. The problem is I can't see how you'd do it. Pluses aren't the problem. People's expectations are the problem. It is logically impossible to have items that are both powerful and not consequential at the same time. Items in 4e are usually fairly weak, enhancement aside, because they aren't supposed to be what you lean on to make your characters. You can't make them more distinctive and interesting without making them more powerful. You could give them very distinct niches, but that won't meet the desire to have a limited number of items.
Either items are a lot like 4e items and form a measurable part of PC power, but don't really add a lot, and are not that distinctive BECAUSE of that. Or else they are few in number and mighty and will be quite interesting but also quite character defining.
Yes, there are 'fun' unique interesting quirky kinds of items, and things that are temporary ala artifacts, but I think you're going to find it pretty hard to create a hefty list of items that are both exciting and trivial at the same time.
I'd note though that Monte says nothing about items not being character defining and powerful. I don't know that he is in the 'let the PC shine through' camp at all. It is kind of hard to tell where he is.
Either items are a lot like 4e items and form a measurable part of PC power, but don't really add a lot, and are not that distinctive BECAUSE of that. Or else they are few in number and mighty and will be quite interesting but also quite character defining.
Yes, there are 'fun' unique interesting quirky kinds of items, and things that are temporary ala artifacts, but I think you're going to find it pretty hard to create a hefty list of items that are both exciting and trivial at the same time.
I'd note though that Monte says nothing about items not being character defining and powerful. I don't know that he is in the 'let the PC shine through' camp at all. It is kind of hard to tell where he is.
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