• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

D&D 5E What needs to be fixed in 5E?

Agreed.

Even with grit though, one has to be careful to allow the game to continue. As an example, say the unlucky PC has one resolve point left after the first encounter and a few wound points. The rest of the PCs have about eight resolve points left. Although it was a bit scary for that PC, that PC is more or less fine now. A little banged up, but easily able to fight.

But the rules still would incentivize the players to hole up for the night. Many if not most groups would do so. When the rules encourage holing up for the night after one somewhat unlucky encounter, that's not a good thing.

I like the rest of your system. But I think that bleeding should be something other than losing a resolve point every round that a save would stop.


In fact, I'm kind of cold to the entire 4E make a save to stop ongoing effects. A PC is on fire, but doesn't have to stop, drop, and roll to put it out. Ditto for your bleeding rules. A severe enough bleed in a gritty system should be wound points straight up and only a high DC Heal check or healing magic of some type should stop it.

I don't mind a saving throw for Daze, Stunned, or anything else that a PC should be able to "shake it off", etc. But I was kind of hoping that in order to stop ongoing damage in 5E, the PC or one of his allies actually has to do something. That would make ongoing damage nasty, but it should be. If you are on fire or have had acid thrown on you, it should be nasty. In 4E, it's mostly a minor inconvenience. Not even a flesh wound. ;)

Well, I think from a 'tactically interesting' point of view forcing tough choices is fine. I don't think the save ends mechanic however is a bad one in general. The issue with anything that steals action economy is that it is FAR more potent than anything that doesn't. You've shot any hope of balancing the two types of powers against each other at all.

In terms of any kind of realism, forget it. You hit an artery that's it, you're done. Best case scenario you're spending the rest of the fight holding your blood in. Worst case you have anywhere from 20 seconds to a few minutes to bleed out. In neither case is any 6 second standard action even remotely realistically fixing the problem, so why bother to even invoke realism at all there? After all fires can go out etc. It isn't like you have to roll around on the ground every time either. Once you go down that road you might as well not bother with any kind of gamist considerations at all, and at that point anything remotely like 4e isn't worth playing.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I'm generally in favor of tiers and siloing (not quite the same thing), but I think that there should be at least some provision for things that cross those boundaries. Otherwise, the whole construct becomes so artificial that you can't help but notice it.

That doesn't mean that you can't be pretty strict with the tiers and silos. If you have a character that is good with a light blade and sneaks well, Dexterity is the obvious thing that crosses boundaries (at least, once that light blade is allowed to work off of Dex). However, on the whole, I think ability scores are rather lacking in this regard (or at least insufficient).

Conceptually, instead of straight bonuses to combat, powers, and skill rolls, it might make sense for high ability scores to unlock other options that were designed to work across boundaries. For example, the higher your Dex, the more Dex options you get. One of these options might be similar to Elven Accuracy, except applicable to any (currently) Dex-based skill check, also.
 

The issue with anything that steals action economy is that it is FAR more potent than anything that doesn't. You've shot any hope of balancing the two types of powers against each other at all.

Agreed. But, nothing says that the action economy used couldn't be a move action plus a check. That isn't necessarily unbalanced, but it is still potent.

I think that ongoing damage should actually be a bit rare and a bit more scary. Elemental damage from being on fire or having your arm in a block of ice, necrotic damage as your soul continues to get sucked out of your body, etc.


One of the pre-4E game elements that is missing is the "Scary damage". Before 4E, level drain was such an element. Players searching a barrow mound would actually be hesitant to have their PCs walk around and NOBODY went off on their own. Although losing levels is lame, there really isn't any scary effects in 4E. Most of it is "ho hum". Another wight. zzzzz

It would be good if 5E had some effects that couldn't just be easily shaken off and actually changed player decisions when they were in situations which could result in them. Death isn't frightening to players. Level drain used to be.

I'm not proposing that WotC bring back level drain, but I am proposing that they introduce something that is a "scary damage or effect". Even Fear in 4E is really a joke for the most part.
 

Agreed.

Even with grit though, one has to be careful to allow the game to continue. As an example, say the unlucky PC has one resolve point left after the first encounter and a few wound points. The rest of the PCs have about eight resolve points left. Although it was a bit scary for that PC, that PC is more or less fine now. A little banged up, but easily able to fight.

But the rules still would incentivize the players to hole up for the night. Many if not most groups would do so. When the rules encourage holing up for the night after one somewhat unlucky encounter, that's not a good thing.

I like the rest of your system. But I think that bleeding should be something other than losing a resolve point every round that a save would stop.


In fact, I'm kind of cold to the entire 4E make a save to stop ongoing effects. A PC is on fire, but doesn't have to stop, drop, and roll to put it out. Ditto for your bleeding rules. A severe enough bleed in a gritty system should be wound points straight up and only a high DC Heal check or healing magic of some type should stop it.

I don't mind a saving throw for Daze, Stunned, or anything else that a PC should be able to "shake it off", etc. But I was kind of hoping that in order to stop ongoing damage in 5E, the PC or one of his allies actually has to do something. That would make ongoing damage nasty, but it should be. If you are on fire or have had acid thrown on you, it should be nasty. In 4E, it's mostly a minor inconvenience. Not even a flesh wound. ;)

Me said:
Bleeding injuries might also occur, requiring a save each round; failure results in the loss of 1 point of resolve. No more saves are required once the bleeding is staunched, which may be accomplished by a successful Healing check, a wound healing spell, or rolling a natural 20 on the bleeding save.

Any type of wound penalty discourages an extended adventuring day. If my fighter is suffering a -1 to all rolls, that's a disincentive to keep going; if he's suffering a -4, that's a really strong disincentive. If you use gritty rules, it's simply part and parcel. Gritty is very different from high fantasy.


The saving throw is just there to introduce an element of unpredictability into the mix. That way, if you have 0 Resolve left, it isn't a certainty that you'll die on your next turn. You won't die until you actually fail a save. It's basically just asking whether you lost enough blood this round to qualify a wound, and assigning a roughly 50/50 chance to the answer.

I let a natural 20 stop the bleeding because I've heard of rare cases where an artery was severed yet the person managed to survive without first aid or immediate medical attention. I like it because, if the healers happen to be unconscious, a character still has a (small) chance to survive such an injury. That might just be my high fantasy tendencies shining through.

Weird stuff happens; people have walked away after falling out of flying airplanes. If you feel a 5% chance to stabilize each round is too common, you could always make it 2 or 3 consecutive 20s (or something like that). Personally, I feel that at that point you've made the occurrence too unlikely to justify the rule.

Realistically though, a person who's suffering from the bleeding injury (as written) will most likely die unless they receive first aid or magical healing, just like in real life. I admit that allowing first aid to help during combat is a bit of a gamist stretch, but making it so that only magical healing could save the character seemed like bad design to me. Again, my personal preferences are biased towards gamism.

IMO, it isn't unreasonable to expect an adventuring party to have some kind of access to healing, but requiring a specific kind of healing tends to make that type of healing too good. It creates groups that require a cleric but look askance at anyone even thinking of playing a non-magical healer. Marginalizing certain classes before they're even fully formed is very bad design in my book.


I like the saving throw mechanic. It's good for creating conditions with unpredictable durations. I felt that the predictable 1 round per level durations of earlier editions made spells feel unmagical; the duration was practically a battery monitor.

That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with a condition that lasts until the end of the encounter or until you can neutralize it (via the Heal skill, Staunch Bleeding spell, or whatever you like). Like Abdul said, you'd have to acknowledge the fact that it would make those conditions much more potent than save ends versions, but you can accomplish that simply by making encounter ends powers higher level powers.

Realistically, a character who's on fire should be hard pressed to do anything other than panic or try to extinguish themselves. Ongoing fire could daze/stun characters, but then it would need to be higher level. If we're willing to allow that a hero is tough enough to ignore the fact that he's on fire and just keep fighting with no penalties, I'm willing to believe that he's tough enough to wait for the fire to burn itself out. Human beings aren't really flammable after all.

A rule that allows players to spend a standard action to gain a bonus saving throw doesn't sound bad. Actively trying to extinguish a fire ought to increase your chances of being able to do so, after all. The Heal skill sort of does this already, but it doesn't cover stop, drop and roll.

I wouldn't get rid of save ends though. It's arguably overused in 4e, but I definitely think it has it's place in design.
 
Last edited:


You'd need to drastically reduce the rate of ongoing damage if you wanted to remove the SE from it... possible, but perhaps less interesting to track then. Ie, ongoing 2 (Heal removes) instead of ongoing 5 poison or ongoing 5 (Acrobatics removes) instead of ongoing 10 fire.
 

You'd need to drastically reduce the rate of ongoing damage if you wanted to remove the SE from it... possible, but perhaps less interesting to track then. Ie, ongoing 2 (Heal removes) instead of ongoing 5 poison or ongoing 5 (Acrobatics removes) instead of ongoing 10 fire.

Not necessarily. Not if Ongoing damage was more rare than in 4E and not if the purpose of Ongoing damage was to be a slightly stronger effect than in 4E.

Yes, it might take a move action and a check to remove the effect, but that's not so overwhelmingly potent that it is game breaking. It's just a bit stronger than today because it requires a move action and prevent PCs from ignoring it completely.

Very few players ever use a Standard action Heal check today to grant a saving throw, so Ongoing Damage today is mostly ignored. A Standard Action is too costly for players to contemplate it often.

Except for some "grant a save" and "damage resistance" powers/abilities, players have little they can do about ongoing damage. So, it's a nuisance. It's something that they cannot do much about unless the Leader focuses on it, so they just endure it. By making it a move action plus a check, they could at least do something about it and would do so. They would give up a move in order to make a check and they would want to often do so.


In fact, there are many monsters today that do less damage with a hit, but then do ongoing damage. This is actually a double bladed game mechanic which can backfire on game designers. On the one hand, since ongoing damage requires a save, there are times when players miss the save multiple times in a row and the damage can become fairly significant. On the other hand, there are quite a few leader and other powers that grant a save (or grant multiple saves, or grant one or more saves with a bonus, or grant damage resistance), so a DM who uses a lot of ongoing damage monsters can actually end up doing less overall damage because his players have prepared for that. In this case, ongoing damage becomes the preferred damage for the players because overall, the PCs take less damage that way.

A player with 5 damage resistance against a normal 15 attack takes 10 damage. A player with 5 damage resistance against a lesser 12 attack combined with 5 ongoing damage takes 7 damage.
 

Yeah... or just move ongoing to end of the turn. Which has some other nice benefits. It's cooler to know you're dropping at the end of your turn, rather than finding out at the start of your turn ;)

Some monsters definitely overvalue ongoing damage, especially since it can't stack.
 

Agreed. But, nothing says that the action economy used couldn't be a move action plus a check. That isn't necessarily unbalanced, but it is still potent.

I think that ongoing damage should actually be a bit rare and a bit more scary. Elemental damage from being on fire or having your arm in a block of ice, necrotic damage as your soul continues to get sucked out of your body, etc.


One of the pre-4E game elements that is missing is the "Scary damage". Before 4E, level drain was such an element. Players searching a barrow mound would actually be hesitant to have their PCs walk around and NOBODY went off on their own. Although losing levels is lame, there really isn't any scary effects in 4E. Most of it is "ho hum". Another wight. zzzzz

It would be good if 5E had some effects that couldn't just be easily shaken off and actually changed player decisions when they were in situations which could result in them. Death isn't frightening to players. Level drain used to be.

I'm not proposing that WotC bring back level drain, but I am proposing that they introduce something that is a "scary damage or effect". Even Fear in 4E is really a joke for the most part.

Yeah, I can get on board with that. There is definitely a difference in terms of 'scary damage'. There are definitely situations where things can get scary, but it is really quite restricted mechanically to the instant kind of scary. There are very few mechanical 'plot scary' kinds of things. They were tough to use. I sort of think there should have been a section of the DMG on the subject, giving examples of curses and etc that the DM can unleash if he wants, etc.
 

I think you need more siloing of powers, feats and skills.

Imagin if every X levels you got a feat, and every Y level you got a talent.
talents intreactic with rolepay and skill challanges (like linguestics, skill focus, some skill power utlilites get repurposed here, maybe even some class utilities)
feats interact with combat(give a +1 to hit, +1 to damage per tier, train in a weapon or implment, ect)

Imagine you start with B trained skills and C Character Traits

Skills are alot like they are now, 8-10 skills that effect most games

Character traits are RP with a little mechanics, a craftsman of some kind, a Noble with contacts, a memeber of a guild. After character cration, these can also be added by RP...spending time training, paying dues, or learning an instrument


Take this to the next step and you have Attack powers and Utilitie Powers already, but what about class features... what if every class gave atleast 1 non combat special feature...or even better a set of options
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top