What did Wizards learn from Essentials?

Couple people mentioned this so I'll elaborate. I guess the confusion is I prefaced the beginning of my "rant" with describing my players as "not into roleplaying". Perhaps that might have been better written as "not predispoded to roleplay" they don't have arts degrees if you know what I mean.

...stuff... :)

Interesting reply, now I mostly do not give much in the line of narration for combat in D&D mostly because it draws attention to aspects of D&D I find quite problematical. I always use at least the powers name as do my players.

I was just wondering if there was a divergence between what the players wanted and what you wanted but it appears not and you would have been better served, it seems if more effort was put in the beginning into narration. It is probably too late now since you are already cheesed off, so I have no useful advice.
 

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A badly worded example. I meant "why do wizards get to use a spellbook to swap dailies, when other arcane classes don't."
Because they're wizards, and they learn through deep study, not by making pacts with devils (ever try re-negotiating a pact with a devil, I'm guessing you can't do it every day) or being born with innate magic in their blood (what, is the sorcerer supposed to get a transfusion each morning).

All other classes seem to get magical innately without any tools beyond an implement, but the wizard's spellbook should be very important, yet it warrants a paragraph at most.
It's quite a potent feature. It gives the wizard more flexibility than any other class, plus free rituals.

ADDED: "If you replace a spell because of gaining a level or through retraining, the previous spells vanishes from your spellbook and is replaced by the new spell."

:erm: Is it written in invisible ink? Is like a spell scroll?
There's probably some wierd limit to the amount of mojo a wizard can keep in his book... Mages, IIRC, don't have that problem. They don't get free rituals, though.


Again, it doesn't say that anywhere, it just says "...you vanish from one place and appear in another." It doesn't mention if you do this by going to the feywild or back, stopping time for 6 seconds, or having the Enterprise beam you up and down again. Why can they do this? Biology? Magic? IT DOESN'T SAY!
Well, it's a racial power, so if you must have an answer, they're Fey, the feywild is positively steeped in magic, so fantasy-biology /and/ magic.


IT DOESN'T SAY THAT!!! "You call your opponents toward you and deliver a blow they will never forget." It basically tells me my fighter can scream "Get over here" and anyone (mages, bloodied foes, or Orcus) walk over and get their beating.
Yeah. It's a 1[W] attack, I think it'll soon be forgotten. The nice thing about separating fluff and rules is that you can change/ignore bad fluff. I thought you were looking for a rationale, not just obsessing over the bit in the book that the book, itself, told you to go ahead and change at whim.

a.) what these monsters do when not fighting PCs and
Whatever the needs of your story and setting dictate.

b.) what differs an goblin cutter from a goblin dogsmasher beyond numbers?
Choice of weapon and victim, sounds like.

It gave a a nod to description, but cares more about stat blocks. The preview books had wonderful fluff, and little of it made it into the core books. This was the biggest failure of 4e.
I agree, the biggest failure of 4e was not having quite enough fluff text. ;)

Additionally, I never had problem using 3.5 spells to make new ones, or refluffing a hobgoblin to be a new monster.
Really? Ever re-fluffed a dragon into a water elemental in 3.5? No, really. That was one of the things that sold me on the game as a DM. I was already used to the idea of mechanics being divorced from 'F/X' from years of Hero, though. But, I was roped into running 4e, which I'd yet to do, as the ink wasn't even dry on the books (remember that fiasco?), at a pick-up game. I ran a 4-encounter, 4th level game in less than 4 hours with about 5 minutes of prep, that included re-skinning spectres as air elementals and a dragon as a water elemental. That was a 'wow' moment.


Clearer bland rules are no substitute for rich, slightly confusing rules.
Maybe not. If only D&D had ever had rules that were never more than slighlty confusing - or at all balanced.

The 1e AD&D DMG invoke a helluva lot more on the world, the rationales, and the belief behind the game, even if the initiative rules were unusable as written. ;)
Heh. More than just the initiative rules, but really nothing about the specific world, IIRC, some cosmology, and a lot of medieval wargaming stuff - the price and time to build mangonels and whatnot - and a surprising amount of Frued. :sigh: It really was a glorious mess, and in EGG's inimmitable style, quite a read for a kid back in the day...

...OK, nostalgic moment over.
 

Am I the only person who finds the 4e MM1 (not to mention the MV or Nentir Vale) more evocative than the 2e MM? The 2e MM gives me a % Liar chance and mud huts. And how big a generic tribe is. Things I don't often care much about unless running a randomised sandbox - if the monsters are in this place they are here for a reason. The 4e MM gives me colour pictures to describe things from, motivations, and how the monsters move and think. And organise to an extent with their combat roles.
 

The 4e MM gives me colour pictures
Done in 2E Monstrous Compendium

to describe things from, motivations,
Done in 2E Monstrous Compendium

...and how the monsters move and think.
Done in 2E Monstrous Compendium

..And organise to an extent with their combat roles.
There were no combat roles back then...but 2E Monstrous Compendium gives ecology, no appearing, special mythology about some of the creatures, spells/rituals from monster components, full monster description....etc The fluff found in the 2E MC has not been matched by any MM created since.
 

Am I the only person who finds the 4e MM1 (not to mention the MV or Nentir Vale) more evocative than the 2e MM? The 2e MM gives me a % Liar chance and mud huts. And how big a generic tribe is. Things I don't often care much about unless running a randomised sandbox - if the monsters are in this place they are here for a reason. The 4e MM gives me colour pictures to describe things from, motivations, and how the monsters move and think. And organise to an extent with their combat roles.

Let's compare 4e and 2e. I'm looking at owlbears, because I need them for my campaign soon. I'm using 2e MC1.

Things in 2e but not 4e: Weight, height, any description beyond the image. That they can easily be taunted and tricked. That they hibernate. Number of young, differences between genders, that they lay eggs. Prices of eggs and young on the market and who buys them.

Things in 4e but not 2e: Color image.

Additionally 4e gives us the stats of "Winterclaw Owlbear", of which it tells us nothing beyond tactics. 2e alludes to arctic owlbears that are a cross between arctic owls and a polar bear. I'd rather get that info and use the same stats than get the 4e stats without any explanation.
 

Done in 2E Monstrous Compendium

Done in 2E Monstrous Compendium

Done in 2E Monstrous Compendium

There were no combat roles back then...but 2E Monstrous Compendium gives ecology, no appearing, special mythology about some of the creatures, spells/rituals from monster components, full monster description....etc The fluff found in the 2E MC has not been matched by any MM created since.

It's kind of unclear from your reply -- have you read the 4e MV (and the MV: Nentir Vale) being discussed?
 

There were no combat roles back then...but 2E Monstrous Compendium gives ecology, no appearing, special mythology about some of the creatures, spells/rituals from monster components, full monster description....etc The fluff found in the 2E MC has not been matched by any MM created since.

Unfortunately, the Monstrous Compendium had one other thing not matched by any MM created since--namely, the practice of giving you a bunch of unbound pages with holes in them and expecting you to keep them in three-ring binders. Epic. Publishing. Fail.

It was, in theory, a clever way to allow you to keep your monsters alphabetized in a single book. Unfortunately, they forgot to account for two things. First, this plan does not work with double-sided pages; if you've got a page with Goblin on one side and Griffon on the other, there's no way to put Gorgon in its proper place. And second, loose-leaf pages in binders do not stand up well to repeated use over the long term. My Monstrous Compendium was falling apart within a year.
 

So, that being said. This is what I noticed happened as DM when you seperated the fluff.... they ignored it. It didnt "make it easier for them to reflluf". It didn't give them the freedom to make any type of fireball, and roleplay however they like unrestricted by the rules. WHat happened was they started playing like this - "I use my daily, it causes a burst of x damage". Thats it. No asking the DM for a description, no refluffing, sometimes we didnt even get the POWERS name!

Yeah, that's one reason i got tired of DMing 4e. Even when i tried to solicit player response (Um...what power was that? What did it do exactly? What is actually happening to that monster?") most of the time it was boiled down to Damage and a Condition. Over and over and over and over.
 

Yeah, that's one reason i got tired of DMing 4e. Even when i tried to solicit player response (Um...what power was that? What did it do exactly? What is actually happening to that monster?") most of the time it was boiled down to Damage and a Condition. Over and over and over and over.

What percentage of that do you think is a system problem, what part do you think is a character sheet problem, and what percentage is just the players you played with?

I ask the latter because I've been in some groups that love to flavor and/or reflavor 4e powers, and other groups that seem to be contractually bound to never ever try it.
 


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