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Gamist, Narrativist, and Simulationist

What type of D&D player are you? GNS version:

  • Gamist

    Votes: 37 28.0%
  • Narrativist

    Votes: 46 34.8%
  • Simulationist

    Votes: 49 37.1%

GNS has a specific meaning. It has a very specific meaning, and that is the types of interaction people have with rules system. It's iterative, it's situational, and it changes from person to person, moment to moment. These three styles of interaction are mutually exclusive.


Then they go on message boards and talk about what nonsense the theory is.

I very strongly disagree that they are mutually exclusive.

Personally, I feel the theory is nonsense because no way of looking at it provides an accurate description of how or why I play rpgs. There are a few bits and pieces which speak to me, but there's no coherent vision which seems to accurately portray my motivations for playing rpgs. At best, I can say that I don't identify with being Gamist, but I do identify with being some kind of balance between Narratavist and Simulationist.

After doing more research I might say Simulationist, but only because the games given as examples for that style of play are games I highly enjoy. I guess if I were forced to pick something, I'd go with that, but I don't identify myself as being of that label.
 

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Strictly speaking, multi-tasking is impossible. Your CPU is swapping out tasks very rapidly to create the illusion of multi-tasking. If you've got multiple CPUs, they are all doing this. More and more, it appears that the same thing happens in the human brain. It certainly happens that way in day-to-day work, where the lady answering the phone, working on a spread sheet, jotting a note down, forwarding an email--is rapidly task switching, creating the illusion that she is multi-tasking. And if you can walk and chew bubblegum at the same time, all you've done is synchronize two separate muscle motions into one activity. :D

Strictly speaking, you can't merge the focus of the three GNS activities at any one time, same as above. Practically speaking, once you can task switch fast enough, the distinction is only academic. Or I guess, the costs of the switch becomes more interesting than that there is a switch.
 

Strictly speaking, multi-tasking is impossible. Your CPU is swapping out tasks very rapidly to create the illusion of multi-tasking. If you've got multiple CPUs, they are all doing this. More and more, it appears that the same thing happens in the human brain. It certainly happens that way in day-to-day work, where the lady answering the phone, working on a spread sheet, jotting a note down, forwarding an email--is rapidly task switching, creating the illusion that she is multi-tasking. And if you can walk and chew bubblegum at the same time, all you've done is synchronize two separate muscle motions into one activity. :D

Strictly speaking, you can't merge the focus of the three GNS activities at any one time, same as above. Practically speaking, once you can task switch fast enough, the distinction is only academic. Or I guess, the costs of the switch becomes more interesting than that there is a switch.

Quite true.
Also it helps to have low bar to pass when you're playing in the different modes. Which is why AD&D's weird design worked well for this, and why 4e's very refined design does not. (I could just as easily say "why Apocalypse World design does not".)

I actually had a complete GNS catastrophe in my most recent game. We're playing a VERY modified version of Pathfinder, and the PCs had just stalked a killed a collection of zombies in a very Sim way-- thinking about how little they wanted to touch them, one character didn't want to piss off the villagers by carving up their unburied dead, etc. I, and the party, was having a great time. When the 'dungeon' shows up, I did possibly the largest screw up I've done in ages: I broke out the battlemat.

After thinking of the game in terms of weather and political relationships and how bad the undead stink, I actually heard the player's brains grind gears when the 10 bazillion rules for movement and terrain PF has came into play. I actually called game after ten minutes of the players getting frustrated an not knowing why. Not something I'll do again.
 

Strictly speaking, multi-tasking is impossible. Your CPU is swapping out tasks very rapidly to create the illusion of multi-tasking. If you've got multiple CPUs, they are all doing this. More and more, it appears that the same thing happens in the human brain. It certainly happens that way in day-to-day work, where the lady answering the phone, working on a spread sheet, jotting a note down, forwarding an email--is rapidly task switching, creating the illusion that she is multi-tasking. And if you can walk and chew bubblegum at the same time, all you've done is synchronize two separate muscle motions into one activity. :D

Strictly speaking, you can't merge the focus of the three GNS activities at any one time, same as above. Practically speaking, once you can task switch fast enough, the distinction is only academic. Or I guess, the costs of the switch becomes more interesting than that there is a switch.

The agenda is different from the task. A series of tasks can be incorporated into a cohesive whole and fulfill several agendas at once.

1-I need to get to work every day

2-I'm out of shape

3-I don't get to see enough skirts

I devise a plan. I get a map out and check different routes. I find one where I can leave my car 30 minutes away from work on foot.

That's the "system". Asking me if walking that route allows me to accomplish 1 OR 2 OR 3 doesn't make any sense. Cool anecdotes about my ability to multitask don't really apply. I am accomplishing all three things as I walk my route. Not only that, I'm also doing other things. I'm getting vitamin C, I'm finding out this park I cut through is beautiful, maybe I'm discovering new interesting shops like a bookstore or something.

Most roleplaying games aren't about specializing toward one agenda. They facilitate the accomplishment of a multi-faceted agenda not unlike the one above. Most DMs and players don't have Shakespearean talent to craft stories, not to mention it's an interactive one. Likewise, the "acting" (role-playing) aspect is just a feature, not the focus. Most DMs in a single session will play through a variety of roles even the most respected actors out there could never pull off convincingly. Just close your eyes and imagine Denzel Washington is GMing Star Wars for you and roleplaying Leia asking you for help. "Obi Wan... you're my only hope... [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlZRHx9InKo"]entertain me[/ame]". RPGs make poor simulation engines. Stories about funny outcomes due to RPG system failures abound. Babies who can throw cars, people who won't die from being thrown into an acid tank which is then pushed off a skyscraper. And as pure game, RPGs have so many drawbacks that if all you're looking for was a challenge, you wouldn't bother with this hobby which has a steep learning curve, requires preparation, lots of time and a group that sticks to a schedule.

RPGs are fun because they're a little bit of all of that and a lot more, fueled by the imagination of the participants.
 

Consonant Dude, I don't disagree with any of that. My point is that when you do all of those things on a walk, your task switching is so low cost that you don't care that you do it. It comes easy. Strictly speaking, you aren't multi-tasking. Practically, you might as well be. It only becomes a problem if, say, your personal trainer and your girl friend in her new skirt want total focus on their agenda, and thus you are late for work. Now, you can't task switch so easily anymore. :p

This is why you can practically "multi-task" in many office positions until the pointy-hair boss decides that means you can do two week-long activities in one week by doing them both at the same time.

Our group runs our games with rapid switches between agenda. The biggest problem with the creative agenda dogma that they can't happen at the same time is that it stops there. The more interesting things are:
  • Why do some groups find that it practically does stop there while others apparently do not?
  • Is this limitations or preferences in action--could they switch more easily if they wanted to?
  • (From the business productivity crowd) What makes the task switch between agendas easy or difficult?
 

Our group runs our games with rapid switches between agenda. The biggest problem with the creative agenda dogma that they can't happen at the same time is that it stops there. The more interesting things are:
  • Why do some groups find that it practically does stop there while others apparently do not?
  • Is this limitations or preferences in action--could they switch more easily if they wanted to?
  • (From the business productivity crowd) What makes the task switch between agendas easy or difficult?

For the third question, my gut makes me think that it has a lot to do with the complexity and intuitive sense of a system. Edwards makes a big to-do about the Storyteller System, which is not a purely "Narrative" system. However it does have narrative elements (Humanity, Rage, etc.). The system is so simple (unless you start actually paying attention to the combat rules, which I do not suggest) that its in essence effortless to switch between the agendas.

This actually gives me a lot of hope for a simple 5e bringing people back: simple and intuitive means that switching as often or infrequently as the group demands has a low mental load.
 

As far as I understand it, that is a reward system:

You have what you like doing - showing off your skill, pushing hard against the system's limits - and when you do those things you get XP. You level up from XP gain, which changes your abilities and how they interact with the rest of the game. Now you have new ways to do what you like; that leads to more XP, which leads to more changes, etc.

I think this is a good point!

What should we call XP systems where XP doesn't just arrive on a treadmill, but the players feel a good amount of investment and autonomy in how quickly their characters advance?

i.e. XP isn't rewarding any particular behavior ("show up, do encounters"); it's rewarding the accomplishment of a goal ("get the treasure without dying"). With it being the player's job to figure out which behavior best accomplishes the goal.
 

GNS as far as I can tell has no empirical grounding and no real rational one either. If I want to classify players it's the more empirical Thinker, Storyteller, Character Actor, Power Gamer from WoTC empirical research. Or the Robin Laws motivations.
It's interesting how different descriptions speak to different people. I find the Storyteller, Method Actor etc stuff from Laws and the 4e DMGs close to useless - I don't game with strangers these days, and I know my players well - whereas The Forge essays (and some of the better posts that I've read there) have been the best thing for my GMing since an article about alignment in Dragon 101 and the original Oriental Adventures (both some time in the mid-80s).

Just one example of the sort of insight I think the Forge has to offer (and, in this case, not especially GNS-related): on General there is a thread on social skills, which has turned to a discussin of perception - is it better to have the player say "I look under the furniture?", or to say "I rolled 18 for my Perception check - what do I see?". In my view, what the first situation involves is roleplaying - the player engaging the fiction via the PC. What the second involves is really a metagame move - the player is asking the GM to refram the scene, into one in which his/her player sees whatever is interesting/worthwhile in the room. The two mechanical approaches are therefore about doing completely different things.

That analysis doesn't tell us which is better - because that would depend on how we want our game to work, and what the merits or demerits are of having the player or the GM having the power to call for, and to frame, scenes. But it's an analysis I probably couldn't have made but for reading stuff at the Forge, and for me at least it helps make sense of what is at stake in the debate over different resolution systems.
 

What makes D&D unique and *the* RPG isn't just its status as the *first* rpg, it's that it is sort of astoundingly flexible.

<snip>

D&D has always had a certain 'suck it up, soldier' bent to it-- it encourages players to approach the game from a competitive stance. Beat the bad guys, get the gold, save the kingdom. You get XP for killing baddies, your characters are built to have a tactical niche, and back in the old days, you were expected to maximize every environmental advantage you could get. It is a dyed in the wool 'Gamist' game.

But nothing in GNS theory says that you HAVE to play D&D like that. You'll be rewarded if you do, but if the DM wants to run a spooky Ravenloft game where you're heroes overwhelmed by evil and you can only hope for small victories before an ignominious death, he totally can. Now, he might butt heads with some of the mechanics (HP increases, increasing power curves and the like) but nothing prevents him giving XP for story, using Fear and Madness Saves and kludging together a system that encourages his story.

Every game can be played in every way.

<snip>

As D&D has moved from 3e to 4e, the game styles it supports have gotten more and more narrow. A general system can support nearly anything.
Quantifying the range of playstyles, and making judgements about breadth or narrowness, is a bit invidious, because one's sense of what counts as meaningful difference of meaningful breadth is easily coloured by one's own preferences.

That said, I don't think D&D has particularly remarkable range. What can I do with D&D that I can't do with RM or RQ? It will handle a certain sort of dungeon crawl better, because it's hit point mechanics make frequent combats more tolerable. But RM or RQ can be pushed in this direction by adopting any of a range of mechanics or play conventions (eg frequent healing potion discoveries and friendly high level cleric NPCs). And for those who like some of the exploration components of a dungeon crawl, the tighter action resolution mechanics in RM or RQ might actually be improvements.

But when I try and use D&D to tell a sprawling tale of worthy protagonists, RQ or RM come to the fore - because unlike D&D they more naturally and readily produce richly defined PCs whose history and experiences are expressed on the character sheet - whereas it is notorious that an AD&D PC's history and experiences are often expressed on the character sheet simply as a list of cherished magic items. Now D&D can be pushed and pulled to make this sort of game work, but in my view has no special talent in that direction. Rolemaster is also a very flexible game system, and RQ perhaps nearly as much (fairly easyily tweaked to give us CoC, for example).

There's no doubt that both publishers (TSR moreso than WotC) and players have, in practice, tried to drift D&D harder and further than probably anyone has tried with RM or RQ. But that is not a sign of D&D's flexibiity, in my view, or a cause of its market position. Rather, it is a consequence of its market position.

It's a further question whether D&D can be played coherently without drifting. In classic AD&D play, I think the alignment rules come close to incoherence - the players are expected to do their best to overcome (via their PCs) the challenge that confront them, but the GM has a standing authority to whack them with the alignment stick - but forcing the players to conform to the GM's view of what is right and wrong seems to be at odds with this whole gamist rationale. Frqeuent drifting or ignoring of the alignment rules - or use of True Neutral as the "I'm an expedient adventurer" alignment - is one result.

The tension between 2nd ed's invocations to storytelling, while presenting AD&D mechanics, are fairly evident. All sorts of drifting, plus ample use of GM force to bridge te gaps, were the result. Whatever one thinks of a game in which no combat is taking place, and action is being resolved based on diceless narration centred on NWPs and the features granted by kits, that is a long way from the game set out in the PHB and DMG.

My personal issue with 3E is that its hit points and saving throws push the game in a gonzo direction - high level wizards can withstand being bathed in fire by multiple hounds of hell even with all their spells and magic stripped away - and yet the skill rules and some aspects of the combat rules (grapple, trip, disarm etc) push in the direction of a gritty, "the real world is the limit" style of play - the same high level wizard risks drowning in water much deeper than a puddle, and is able to be knocked prone by the same hounds of hell whose breath barely singes.

For me, the latent point of incoherence in 4e is with its treasure placement rules - the suggestion is that these be treated as part of PC build, based on player wishlists - so they are not a reward but rather part of the ongoig apparatus of character development - and yet the rules suggest that they are linked to the successful overcoming of encounters - implying that they are some sort of reward for play. My own solution to this is to mostly separate treasure placement from encounters all together, and to make the rewards from encounters primarily story ones rather than treasure ones.

I think 4e is easily drifted with utterly minimal distortion to the rules and guidelines as written in either a gamist or a narrativist direction, and probably a high-concept sim/dramatist direction also (although this may require reducing some aspects of player control over PC building, perhaps by brining in earlier edition concepts of GM veto over player choice of PC build). I don't think it's easily drifted to exploration-heavy play, and that's an issue for an edition of D&D, given that exploration-heavy play is central to classic D&D, but I'm not sure that that shows that 4e is especially narrow - just that it is perhaps not especially suited to its target audience.
 

Consonant Dude, I don't disagree with any of that. My point is that when you do all of those things on a walk, your task switching is so low cost that you don't care that you do it. It comes easy. Strictly speaking, you aren't multi-tasking. Practically, you might as well be. It only becomes a problem if, say, your personal trainer and your girl friend in her new skirt want total focus on their agenda, and thus you are late for work. Now, you can't task switch so easily anymore. :p

This is why you can practically "multi-task" in many office positions until the pointy-hair boss decides that means you can do two week-long activities in one week by doing them both at the same time.

Our group runs our games with rapid switches between agenda. The biggest problem with the creative agenda dogma that they can't happen at the same time is that it stops there. The more interesting things are:
  • Why do some groups find that it practically does stop there while others apparently do not?
  • Is this limitations or preferences in action--could they switch more easily if they wanted to?
  • (From the business productivity crowd) What makes the task switch between agendas easy or difficult?

I find myself somewhat curious what you'd consider that the RTO of an infantry platoon is doing when he's capable of shooting, maneuvering, and communicating (sometimes using multiple radios and frequencies while doing so) all at the same time. This isn't meant as snarky or anything like that; I'm genuinely curious -especially since that was at one time my day-to-day job.



On the topic of GNS, I'm also genuinely curious how my playstyle would be defined. I think understanding myself would go a long way toward helping to identify my likes and dislikes and being able to relate those views to other members of the community. The main issue I have with being able to decide between N & S is that -from my understanding- N seems to value internal character motivation and the potential for character change; S seems to value consistency of the external game world and the character consistently acting within the expectations of the game and genre and character's role in the story. I find both equally important, and do not believe one is at odds with the other. I value balance in a lot of the areas where N & S are at odds and take opposing positions.
 

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