Heroes of the Elemental Chaos

[keterys]

Not enough.

I sat at a level 23 table that took out Lolth (L35 Solo) _before she acted_. And she's one of the better solos.

Solos are likely to get slapped with -9 to attack for a round or two, knocked prone and immobilized, dazed or stunned every single round... so, sure, it helps when they shed a condition or two, absolutely.

But at the end of the day, the difference between a solo dying in two rounds after dealing a surge's worth of damage to one or two creatures and one dying in three rounds after dealing a surge's worth of damage to everything. Well, it just means the solos need a lot of work. EPIC3-1 had an example solo that can cope with conditions well enough to function a little. EPIC3-2, 3-3, and 4-1 have some examples of condition shedding for elites, to keep them viable. So, step up that level of shedding threefold, and keep an eye on raw penalties, not just conditions (attack penalties in particular, though defense penalties aren't too fun either). Cannot attack (save ends). Champion's Code or similar effects that prevent attacking anyone other than a defender. Mantle of Unity for massive defenses for long enough.

I attempt to pay with XP for the encounters that go into each epic adventure, so solos just aren't worth the effort most of the time. Worse so even than minions, in some cases.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there Jester!

Interesting- my game (pcs are about 13th-14th right now) still challenges the heck out of them with equal level encounters, but then the pcs aren't super-optimized, it's possible that they are slightly under-treasured and I ensure that my monsters are updated to MM3 standards. Also, I'm mean, and it's possible that my tactics are better than the players'.

Well as you say,

1. They are not super-optimized
2. They are probably slightly under-treasured
3. You are a tactically astute DM

I think the key is not so much super-optimized as super-synergized. Both together will lead to scenarios akin to what keterys mentioned.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy keterys!

Not enough.

I sat at a level 23 table that took out Lolth (L35 Solo) _before she acted_. And she's one of the better solos.

I'd love to watch that same group taking on my Super-solo version of Kronos.

Wrath of the Titans – Kronos Eternity Publishing

Solos are likely to get slapped with -9 to attack for a round or two, knocked prone and immobilized, dazed or stunned every single round... so, sure, it helps when they shed a condition or two, absolutely.

I have built in safeguards (see Boss Monster and Boss Resilience Traits in the stat-block) to prevent that from happening to solo-monsters. But these same safeguards still allow PCs to use conditions like Daze and Stun. Simply that the effect is lessened.

But at the end of the day, the difference between a solo dying in two rounds after dealing a surge's worth of damage to one or two creatures and one dying in three rounds after dealing a surge's worth of damage to everything. Well, it just means the solos need a lot of work. EPIC3-1 had an example solo that can cope with conditions well enough to function a little. EPIC3-2, 3-3, and 4-1 have some examples of condition shedding for elites, to keep them viable. So, step up that level of shedding threefold, and keep an eye on raw penalties, not just conditions (attack penalties in particular, though defense penalties aren't too fun either). Cannot attack (save ends). Champion's Code or similar effects that prevent attacking anyone other than a defender. Mantle of Unity for massive defenses for long enough.

I attempt to pay with XP for the encounters that go into each epic adventure, so solos just aren't worth the effort most of the time. Worse so even than minions, in some cases.

Check out the ideas in the Kronos entry and you'll see that solo monsters can be relevant again.

 

[pemerton]

Interesting- my game (pcs are about 13th-14th right now) still challenges the heck out of them with equal level encounters, but then the pcs aren't super-optimized, it's possible that they are slightly under-treasured and I ensure that my monsters are updated to MM3 standards. Also, I'm mean, and it's possible that my tactics are better than the players'.

My game is 15th, and for the last several levels I've been fairly routinely using level +2/3/4 encounters - albeit typically in setups where forces a(both PC and enemy) are somewhat divided or staggered in the way in which they enter the combat.

I have found the PCs to be incredibly robust, even without a fully dedicated leader (healing is distributed over a paladin, a hybrid ranger/cleric, and a dwarf fighter with a cloak of the walking wounded). Damage comes from the hybrid archer-ranger and a chaos sorcerer (who is the closest to a fully optimised build), and control from a wizard and the polearm-wielding dwarf.

Some of my players are quite tactically strong. I am tactically OK but not as strong as my better players, and also tend to follow "story" rather than tactics in playing my NPCs/monsters (eg NPCs attack their PC rivals/enemies rather than always focus fire - it's a little bit superhero-ish in that way).

 

[keterys]

I'd love to watch that same group taking on my Super-solo version of Kronos.

Hmm... I think they might have run out of steam on him, though I'm not certain.

Basically, they'd knock him unconscious. Twice. Each time, he'd get CdG-ed into a phase change, but then they'd still have another 1400 to work through and that resist 15 all would be just mean on most of the party. Also, hitting would perhaps become an issue because they only had maybe two rounds of super bonuses to hit available. (Not that needing an 8 to hit is horrible, but those misses definitely add up)

So, let's say they'd start the combat going first and knock him unconscious, drop him to a phase change. Dance for a round, knock him unconscious, drop him to a phase change. After that, they'd do maybe 300 damage per round and would need to live for 5 rounds to do it, though two of those rounds they could use cheater abilities (champion's code, remove from play). And one would be Baned for -10 to attacks. Maybe two, if he had the ability to get a power back (possibly with some mid battle item tossing)

Still, I don't know what healing tricks they had, but that might be a serious problem. 7 rounds of 30 fire is definitely greater than everyone's max hp. Though weirdly some of the minion creation might help (their defender got 17 temp and could spend a surge when he killed something)

At level 30, it would be a different story, though.

At any rate, yes, if I can use _two_ solos (or a super solo) that's different... but I'm trying to use some vague semblance of XP

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy keterys!

Hmm... I think they might have run out of steam on him, though I'm not certain.

Basically, they'd knock him unconscious. Twice. Each time, he'd get CdG-ed into a phase change, but then they'd still have another 1400 to work through and that resist 15 all would be just mean on most of the party. Also, hitting would perhaps become an issue because they only had maybe two rounds of super bonuses to hit available. (Not that needing an 8 to hit is horrible, but those misses definitely add up)

So, let's say they'd start the combat going first and knock him unconscious, drop him to a phase change. Dance for a round, knock him unconscious, drop him to a phase change. After that, they'd do maybe 300 damage per round and would need to live for 5 rounds to do it, though two of those rounds they could use cheater abilities (champion's code, remove from play). And one would be Baned for -10 to attacks. Maybe two, if he had the ability to get a power back (possibly with some mid battle item tossing)

Still, I don't know what healing tricks they had, but that might be a serious problem. 7 rounds of 30 fire is definitely greater than everyone's max hp. Though weirdly some of the minion creation might help (their defender got 17 temp and could spend a surge when he killed something)

At level 30, it would be a different story, though.

At any rate, yes, if I can use _two_ solos (or a super solo) that's different... but I'm trying to use some vague semblance of XP

Some interesting points raised:

1. Which powers are rendering enemies unconscious and what books are they from?
2. Yes the minion creation might help the PCs as regards temp. hp.
3. Remember that a fire Titan emerges from each open pool of lava each round.
4. As regards XP, Kronos is worth the same as Lolth.

 

[keterys]

1. Knockout was one. The second was some Battlemind or Avenger thing (not familiar with it)
2. It's possible the defender might also kill a fire titan as well, but I'm positive those would not net any benefit (they'd be doing more damage than he'd be healing and it wouldn't necessarily be worthwhile to do more than tag them)
3. Yeah, that's a _real_ problem to the L23 group, though less so if they were actually L30.
4. Eh... yes and no. The point was more that Lolth isn't worth her xp as a solo. Yours probably is worth its xp, yes

Oddly, the group that downed Lolth was not _that_ crazy optimized. (say, 2 solids, 2 high, 1 crazy)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy keterys!

1. Knockout was one. The second was some Battlemind or Avenger thing (not familiar with it)

Knockout is the Rogue Level 9 Daily power. This deals 2[W] damage and the target is knocked unconscious (save ends). If the unconscious target takes any damage it is no longer unconscious.

There is a Level 15 Battlemind Daily power called Mind Blade which deals:

Hit: Target is Unconscious (save ends)
After Effect: 10 + Con mod psychic damage
Miss: Target is dazed (save ends)

As I see it:

A. Once unconscious, the PCs only get one single CdG attack on him before he's no longer unconscious.

B. Kronos gets to save at the start of each turn, meaning even if they do knock him unconscious it'll probably only last half a round.

I'm wondering if a single PC will deal 700 damage to Kronos with a CdG? Necessary to drop him all the way to the next phase.

2. It's possible the defender might also kill a fire titan as well, but I'm positive those would not net any benefit (they'd be doing more damage than he'd be healing and it wouldn't necessarily be worthwhile to do more than tag them)

I really should have done some custom stats for Kronos' servants.

Average (adjusted L25 Fire Titan) damage 33 though so 3d12+14 or thereabouts.
Adjusted L26 Rockfire Dreadnought Minion damage = 17

3. Yeah, that's a _real_ problem to the L23 group, though less so if they were actually L30.

It would be nice to see a Level 30 Party against him. I think they should win. Statistically the 50/50 fight would be against a party of Level 25-26 characters.

4. Eh... yes and no. The point was more that Lolth isn't worth her xp as a solo. Yours probably is worth its xp, yes

Note also that by using auxhiliary troops up to the next XPV you can help give the solo monster a bit of a cushion without unduly upping the encounter challenge.

Oddly, the group that downed Lolth was not _that_ crazy optimized. (say, 2 solids, 2 high, 1 crazy)

Sounds like a fun group to challenge.

 

[Piratecat]

Knockout is a fantastic power. Usually our lvl 14 rogue uses it in conjunction with Bloodbath to cause massive ongoing damage. Last game, however, they took on the lvl 22 solo bad guy I had planned for the end of Paragon tier. The fight was on a 200' tall tower, in a hurricane. I expected a near TPK; instead, a round and a half in, the PCs knocked the foe unconscious. Then - very gently! - they hauled him to the edge and dropped him over 200' onto rocks. Then they dropped catapult stones onto his head from 200' up.

Big jerks.

So, yeah. Knockout is handy.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Piratecat!

Knockout is a fantastic power. Usually our lvl 14 rogue uses it in conjunction with Bloodbath to cause massive ongoing damage. Last game, however, they took on the lvl 22 solo bad guy I had planned for the end of Paragon tier. The fight was on a 200' tall tower, in a hurricane. I expected a near TPK; instead, a round and a half in, the PCs knocked the foe unconscious. Then - very gently! - they hauled him to the edge and dropped him over 200' onto rocks. Then they dropped catapult stones onto his head from 200' up.

Big jerks.

So, yeah. Knockout is handy.

Would you allow Knockout to work on an enemy that was Huge/Gargantuan and also would you stipulate that the PC had to be able to hit the monster on the head?