Something Awful leak.

[Janaxstrus]

Agreed.

Monsters and PCs using all the same rules sounds nice. But then I realize that while my players only have to deal with building and maintaining a single character using the complex character building system, I have to deal with dozens to hundreds, and if I'm going to spend that much time on a second job, I want it to be one I get paid cash money for.

My first session as a DM was roughly 25 years ago, so I am saying this from some experience...

Not every monster needs to be special.

As such, at they have roughly 5 books of monsters already fully statted out for 3.5 alone, I think they called them Monster Manuals.

The only time I feel the need to fully stat out a monster/NPC is when it is Special (named, Dragons, "boss")

Really guys, it's ok for a troll to just be a troll, a ghast to be a ghast and a ettercap to be an ettercap. They don't all have to be plane touched, vampiric and advanced. You will have to take my word on that.

 

[Scribble]

Really guys, it's ok for a troll to just be a troll, a ghast to be a ghast and a ettercap to be an ettercap. They don't all have to be plane touched, vampiric and advanced. You will have to take my word on that.

It's not about making them "plane touched, vampiric, and advanced-" at least for me.

For me it's about supporting the unexpected. Throwing a troll at pcs the first time? Fun... OMG it's not dying!!! Throwing them at the PCs the 3rd time? Get the fire swords out...

Making monsters quick to generate for me lets me throw together monsters that keep on scaring the players because they never know what to expect. THAT to me is the fun of D&D.

 

[Janaxstrus]

It's not about making them "plane touched, vampiric, and advanced-" at least for me.

For me it's about supporting the unexpected. Throwing a troll at pcs the first time? Fun... OMG it's not dying!!! Throwing them at the PCs the 3rd time? Get the fire swords out...

Making monsters quick to generate for me lets me throw together monsters that keep on scaring the players because they never know what to expect. THAT to me is the fun of D&D.

Not everything has to be different. I want a reason for their to be "special" trolls in the same area as regular trolls. I like my cities to make sense and my ecologies to make sense, as much like a viable world (albeit one involving magic) as possible.

We've been running through one of the PF adventure paths, and are now 9th level in one campaign. If we hit trolls, only the Wizard and the Spirit shaman would have fire to deal with them. Not everyone has flaming swords, regardless of the level. Even with fire, all it does is stop the regeneration. They are nasty regardless.

In spite of that, they have the mountain troll, the war troll, etc etc. These monsters exist already.

 

[Scribble]

Not everything has to be different. I want a reason for their to be "special" trolls in the same area as regular trolls. I like my cities to make sense and my ecologies to make sense, as much like a viable world (albeit one involving magic) as possible.

We've been running through one of the PF adventure paths, and are now 9th level in one campaign. If we hit trolls, only the Wizard and the Spirit shaman would have fire to deal with them. Not everyone has flaming swords, regardless of the level. Even with fire, all it does is stop the regeneration. They are nasty regardless.

In spite of that, they have the mountain troll, the war troll, etc etc. These monsters exist already.

For me it's about the little differences. It's not Mountain Troll vrs Regular Troll. It's about Regular Troll with a few small difefrences. it makes it feel like a living creature to me as opposed to just some numbers on a sheet, and as I mentioned before makes it harder to expect.

I'm not saying that people who pull stuff straight out of the MM are playing wrong or anything. (I do that too sometimes.) I just like to be able to quickly and easily manipulate/build monsters, and when they use their own rules they tend to work well for that purpose.

 

[Janaxstrus]

For me it's about the little differences. It's not Mountain Troll vrs Regular Troll. It's about Regular Troll with a few small difefrences. it makes it feel like a living creature to me as opposed to just some numbers on a sheet, and as I mentioned before makes it harder to expect.

I'm not saying that people who pull stuff straight out of the MM are playing wrong or anything. (I do that too sometimes.) I just like to be able to quickly and easily manipulate/build monsters, and when they use their own rules they tend to work well for that purpose.

But what would be so different about them as compared to regular trolls that would necessitate a lot of work? How would they get these differences?

Changing the stats? Sure, some trolls may be stronger, weaker, more dextrous, etc. Those changes take a few seconds. More or less hps? Ok, note that.

Are you adding special abilities others of their kind DON'T have? If so..how did they get them? Are humans spontaneously born with special abilities? If not, why are trolls, or worgs, or hill giants? If humans do as well, are there dozens of NPCs running around town with Acid Resistance natively? Why?

These are the things I think of, personally. If trolls are evolving new powers, then eventually (if they are beneficial) all trolls should potentially have them, as it is adventageous. Why are all of these creatures which exist as a species with specific abilities suddenly spontaneously evolving new powers?

 

[Scribble]

But what would be so different about them as compared to regular trolls that would necessitate a lot of work? How would they get these differences?

Changing the stats? Sure, some trolls may be stronger, weaker, more dextrous, etc. Those changes take a few seconds. More or less hps? Ok, note that.

Are you adding special abilities others of their kind DON'T have? If so..how did they get them? Are humans spontaneously born with special abilities? If not, why are trolls, or worgs, or hill giants? If humans do as well, are there dozens of NPCs running around town with Acid Resistance natively? Why?

These are the things I think of, personally. If trolls are evolving new powers, then eventually (if they are beneficial) all trolls should potentially have them, as it is adventageous. Why are all of these creatures which exist as a species with specific abilities suddenly spontaneously evolving new powers?

Same way PCs get them.

A PC is generally defined by Race + Class. These two things amount for the entirety of their abilities, and they vary based on what the player chooses.

(Realistically I walk down the street I'm going to see people with several different abilities and skills, not all humans function exactly the same way,)

Making monsters run by different rules allows me to quickly and easily give a monster new "class powers and features" without having to account for an existing class or make a new one, or go through the cumbersome process of adding existing class levels. I just "assume" this is what this monster with X class would be like if said class existed, and the numbers work out.

It's essentially short hand for doing exactly what monster + class level does. It gives me the end result without the work.


It's also easier to make what should be bizarre more bizarre. Some monsters should be just that- monsters. They shouldn't follow evolutionary patterns or social normal. They should be weird, unexpected things hidden in deep dark unexplored places.

Making it quick and easy to adjust monsters allows me to get more use out of spooky weird monsters more quickly and easily. I can make a monster players might have encountered in other games and campaigns "new" again more easily. This makes me happy.


You previously stated that you generally like using monsters straight out of the MM... More power to you... Why deny ME my ability to quickly and easily re-stat monsters because you don't want to make use of it?

 

[Hussar]

My first session as a DM was roughly 25 years ago, so I am saying this from some experience...

Not every monster needs to be special.

As such, at they have roughly 5 books of monsters already fully statted out for 3.5 alone, I think they called them Monster Manuals.

The only time I feel the need to fully stat out a monster/NPC is when it is Special (named, Dragons, "boss")

Really guys, it's ok for a troll to just be a troll, a ghast to be a ghast and a ettercap to be an ettercap. They don't all have to be plane touched, vampiric and advanced. You will have to take my word on that.

But, if you're only changing the stats on 1% of the creatures, why in heck do you need three pages of rules to do it? And, why not give me quick rules for changing monsters so that I don't have to buy 5 books of monsters? Instead, I can do what I did in 4e - buy one monster book and go to town with incredibly quick and easy monster tweaking rules

Good grief, the last adventure I wrote, I don't think I used a single creature that was stock from the Monster Manual. It was GLORIOUS.

 

[Janaxstrus]

Same way PCs get them.

A PC is generally defined by Race + Class. These two things amount for the entirety of their abilities, and they vary based on what the player chooses.

(Realistically I walk down the street I'm going to see people with several different abilities and skills, not all humans function exactly the same way,)

Making monsters run by different rules allows me to quickly and easily give a monster new "class powers and features" without having to account for an existing class or make a new one, or go through the cumbersome process of adding existing class levels. I just "assume" this is what this monster with X class would be like if said class existed, and the numbers work out.

It's essentially short hand for doing exactly what monster + class level does. It gives me the end result without the work.


It's also easier to make what should be bizarre more bizarre. Some monsters should be just that- monsters. They shouldn't follow evolutionary patterns or social normal. They should be weird, unexpected things hidden in deep dark unexplored places.

Making it quick and easy to adjust monsters allows me to get more use out of spooky weird monsters more quickly and easily. I can make a monster players might have encountered in other games and campaigns "new" again more easily. This makes me happy.


You previously stated that you generally like using monsters straight out of the MM... More power to you... Why deny ME my ability to quickly and easily re-stat monsters because you don't want to make use of it?

Yes, PCs are defined by race AND class. So should monsters.
You can restat monsters just fine with 3e system. You add a class or by DM fiat, add a power you want them to have. I want the rules to be the same if you add a barbarian level to a troll or a human.

I disagree vehemently that monsters shouldn't follow evolutionary patterns. It's a viable world that (while magical) should have an actual ecosystem.

 

[Hassassin]

And, why not give me quick rules for changing monsters so that I don't have to buy 5 books of monsters?

Let me think... No, can't figure out why they wouldn't do that.

 

[mudbunny]

Yes, PCs are defined by race AND class. So should monsters.
You can restat monsters just fine with 3e system. You add a class or by DM fiat, add a power you want them to have. I want the rules to be the same if you add a barbarian level to a troll or a human.

I disagree vehemently that monsters shouldn't follow evolutionary patterns. It's a viable world that (while magical) should have an actual ecosystem.

The main problem I have with that is that with the way that you build monsters in 3.5 is a sense of entitlement by many (not all, but many) players that if a monster does something, that they can do something as well. That is not to mention the idea that in order to make someone a master blacksmith, you need to make them a high-level NPC so that they can have the proper number of ranks.