Why is the Vancian system still so popular?

I have never found this disconnect. Ever. What the fighter says is something like "I will hold the line here." Or "I'll chase him down and then knock him off the roof." The matter of how, being a matter of muscle memory and instinctive decisions is a level of detail further than most plans are made. Planning to that level of detail is IME doomed to failure.

We're not talking complicated plans here, we're talking about a simple question like "Can you, Mr. Fighter, attack all 6 of those goblins in 2 rounds before they get out of range, or should we have the wizard handle that?" and the answer being "No, I can't hit more than 4 of them, guaranteed, but I can't for the life of me tell you why."

I'm not really convinced. Those abilities aren't spells (and certainly not vancian spells). I don't see how a Paladin can say "i can't smite that demon once again today, my faith/self confidence in my god/virtue isn't strong enough. I can heal you laying my hands on you, though. I haven't tapped that part of my god/virtue yet." It's not very organic either. I'd rather have the paladin have a "devotion" score (or whatever fancy better name the devs might use), and then use those devotion points in healing, or smiting, or maybe turning undeads or deploying a holy aura against fear or whatever.

Again, it would be better if they were non-daily, but smite and LoH at least have some flavor justification for being daily, even if it's a tenuous one, because they're divine magical effects just like the paladin's spells. Personally, I like to make smites per encounter and give daily refills of the LoH pool in my paladin fixes and/or allow spending Turn Undead attempts to recharge both.
 

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We're not talking complicated plans here, we're talking about a simple question like "Can you, Mr. Fighter, attack all 6 of those goblins in 2 rounds before they get out of range, or should we have the wizard handle that?" and the answer being "No, I can't hit more than 4 of them, guaranteed, but I can't for the life of me tell you why."

Just asking the question the way you are is breaking my suspension of disbelief.

And for the record, the fighter can attack 1 person/round at range unless he really exerts himself with an action point (please tell me you don't need that fatigue mechanic justifying). In melee a two weapon fighter can normally attack two targets and other people one - unless they have a burst 1 or something very rare like Rain of Blows (or Rain of Steel). Come and Get It being the obvious exception.

The ranger can manage two at range on their standard action and might get an interrupt for a third. The essentials hunter gets effectively a burst 1 rain of arrows at will as their multiattack and no dailies.

It's actually pretty consistent through the whole of heroic.
 

Again, it would be better if they were non-daily, but smite and LoH at least have some flavor justification for being daily, even if it's a tenuous one, because they're divine magical effects just like the paladin's spells. Personally, I like to make smites per encounter and give daily refills of the LoH pool in my paladin fixes and/or allow spending Turn Undead attempts to recharge both.
It doesn't matter if they are divine effects, it's exactly the same:

"Why can't you smite the second demon?"
"I can only smite once per day!"
"Why is that?"
"It's a divine power that can be used only once a day."
"But why only once a day? Your god doesn't want you killing more than one evil thing a day. Is he ok with you dying because you can't use it a second time? Maybe he isn't godly enough to be able to allow you to smite twice a day. Oh, you mean if you get more powerful, you'll be able to smite twice a day, so it isn't a limitation on the power of your god. So, you are just too tired then from using it once that you can't do it again? No? It's 24 hours regardless of how much rest you get. And it's generally measured by the 24 hour period of the world so that if you use 1 smite a minute before midnight you can use another 1 minute after midnight? That makes no sense at all.

And while we're at it, why when you pray for spells does your god only give you 3 of them? Shouldn't he give you as many as you want to better defeat your enemies? You aren't powerful enough to contain 4 spells? How do you become more powerful? BELIEVE harder? And you are able to believe harder by killing people?

I'm telling you, man, this makes no sense at all. At least the Wizard over there makes sense. He simply is too stupid to remember more than 3 spells at a time....but his memory gets better the more he kills people. On second thought, that doesn't make much sense either, does it?

Screw it, let's just kill some monsters."
 

Just asking the question the way you are is breaking my suspension of disbelief.

And for the record, the fighter can attack 1 person/round at range unless he really exerts himself with an action point (please tell me you don't need that fatigue mechanic justifying). In melee a two weapon fighter can normally attack two targets and other people one - unless they have a burst 1 or something very rare like Rain of Blows (or Rain of Steel). Come and Get It being the obvious exception.

The ranger can manage two at range on their standard action and might get an interrupt for a third. The essentials hunter gets effectively a burst 1 rain of arrows at will as their multiattack and no dailies.

It's actually pretty consistent through the whole of heroic.

I don't see why the question is SoD-breaking at all. In prior editions, "How many things can you hit in the next two rounds" had a definite answer that both the player and character knew, and it was consistent: if you could make 1 attack, or 2 attacks, or 3/2 attacks, you could just keep doing that. It might require maneuvers or feats or class features, and it may vary from round to round, but in general if you max is X attacks, you can do that all day. In real life, someone skilled with a weapon can generally tell you how many shots per minute or lunges per 10 seconds or whatever they can manage. In 4e, sometimes the fighter can do 1, sometimes 2, sometimes 3, sometimes "however many are in reach," and the fighter has no consistent in-world explanation why he can do 1 sometimes and 8 sometimes and only a limited number of times each.

Sweeping Blow hits everything adjacent, 1/encounter. A 3e fighter with Whirlwind Attack, if asked "Can you go up and hit all those goblins?" says "Yes," and if asked "Can you hit that other group of goblins?" says "Yep, right away." A 3e warblade with Mithral Tornado, if asked "Can you go up and hit all those goblins?" says "Yes," and if asked "Can you hit that other group of goblins?" says "Yeah, but I'll need to take a bit of a breather first." A 4e fighter with Sweeping Blow, if asked "Can you go up and hit all those goblins?" says "Yes," and if asked "Can you hit that other group of goblins?" says "No." If asked why, he says "...because?" and that's about it.

3e feats and maneuvers (combat maneuvers and ToB maneuvers) are just things a martial character can do. You can count on them being able to pull that trick as many times as necessary given at most 1 round's notice. You can plan tactically and strategically around the use of those abilities, as they are consistent, discrete, and known in-game. Not so for 4e exploits.

It doesn't matter if they are divine effects, it's exactly the same:

"Why can't you smite the second demon?"
"I can only smite once per day!"
"Why is that?"
"It's a divine power that can be used only once a day."
"But why only once a day? Your god doesn't want you killing more than one evil thing a day. Is he ok with you dying because you can't use it a second time? Maybe he isn't godly enough to be able to allow you to smite twice a day. Oh, you mean if you get more powerful, you'll be able to smite twice a day, so it isn't a limitation on the power of your god. So, you are just too tired then from using it once that you can't do it again? No? It's 24 hours regardless of how much rest you get. And it's generally measured by the 24 hour period of the world so that if you use 1 smite a minute before midnight you can use another 1 minute after midnight? That makes no sense at all.

And while we're at it, why when you pray for spells does your god only give you 3 of them? Shouldn't he give you as many as you want to better defeat your enemies? You aren't powerful enough to contain 4 spells? How do you become more powerful? BELIEVE harder? And you are able to believe harder by killing people?

I'm telling you, man, this makes no sense at all. At least the Wizard over there makes sense. He simply is too stupid to remember more than 3 spells at a time....but his memory gets better the more he kills people. On second thought, that doesn't make much sense either, does it?

Screw it, let's just kill some monsters."

It makes plenty of sense, because it's internally-consistent. While "It's magic, so it doesn't have to make sense" is a complete copout, "it's magic, so it follows a set of rules that happen to be different from the laws of physics" is valid. You could have to recite the Iliad while doing cartwheels to cast fireball, and that would be fine (as silly as that would look), as long as wizards know that's what they have to do to cast it and you cast a fireball if and only if you recite the Iliad while doing cartwheels.

Compare:

Cleric prayer fluff: "Your god will intercede with you X+Y times per day, varying in power, and you must choose these intercessions during morning prayer. Each of the X greater intercession may be called upon once per day, and each of the Y lesser intercessions may be called upon every few minutes."
Cleric prayer mechanics: "Your god grants you X spells per day, divided thusly among prayer levels, and Y spells per encounter, divided thusly among prayer levels. Each spell can be cast once per day or per encounter, as noted."

This may not be how you personally would model divine intervention, but the explanation makes sense in game and the flavor matches the mechanics.

Wizard spell fluff: "You partially cast long and complicated spells to allow you to release them with a moment's notice later; they are complex rituals, and your mind can only hold X+Y spells of various circles at one time, some of which are easier for your mind to encompass than others. Once released, a spell is gone."
Wizard spell mechanics: "You may prepare up to X spells per day, divided thusly among spell levels, and Y spells per encounter, divided thusly among spell levels. Each spell can be cast once per day or per encounter, as noted."

This may not be how you personally would model arcane magic, but the explanation makes sense in game and the flavor matches the mechanics.

Fighter exploit fluff: "You are an accomplished warrior, with many techniques and tricks under your belt. You have become a paragon of combat through endless hours of practice, determination, and your own sheer physical toughness, and have mastered the intricacies of combat with a skill that others simply can't match."
Fighter exploit mechanics: "You have X exploits per day, divided thusly among exploit levels, and Y exploits per encounter, divided thusly among exploit levels. Each exploit can be used once per day or per encounter, as noted."

Whether or not this is how you personally would model martial prowess, the explanation for the mechanics doesn't make sense in game and the flavor doesn't match the mechanics.

Clerics and wizards can talk intelligently in-game about how their spell system works. Fighters cannot do the same with their exploit system.
 

I don't see why the question is SoD-breaking at all. In prior editions, "How many things can you hit in the next two rounds" had a definite answer that both the player and character knew, and it was consistent: if you could make 1 attack, or 2 attacks, or 3/2 attacks, you could just keep doing that.

And AD&D broke my suspension of disbelief hard. 1 attack per minute? There must be something weird going on there. That one or two attack rolls were representative of an entire minute of fighting. I couldn't kill three orcs in a minute whatever I did. What was I doing? Fighting through treacle? Walking round with a portable slow zone? Whatever, the number of people I could attack was not in any way a reflection of what I was actually doing in the battle.

3e was better.
YMMV as we'll see below.

A 3e warblade with Mithral Tornado, if asked "Can you go up and hit all those goblins?" says "Yes," and if asked "Can you hit that other group of goblins?" says "Yeah, but I'll need to take a bit of a breather first." A 4e fighter with Sweeping Blow, if asked "Can you go up and hit all those goblins?" says "Yes," and if asked "Can you hit that other group of goblins?" says "No." If asked why, he says "...because?" and that's about it.
EXACTLY. He says "... because?" This to you is just fine when it's perfectly clear that the warblade has used no other maneuver and therefore it's not a fatigue issue - he has half a dozen other prepared maneuvers (or am I thinking of the swordsage? Same difference). Mysteriously, you find the "... because?" answer fine for 3.X but not for 4e. Where is the difference?

3e feats and maneuvers (combat maneuvers and ToB maneuvers) are just things a martial character can do.
Advice to a real life distance runner is "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Take one day of recovery for every mile raced"[/FONT]. I fail to see why actually needing rest times longer than six seconds is something you balk at on "realism" grounds. A PC is under immense stress when giving it their all in combat - it's the 3.X untiring robots, and the just peachy in six seconds warblades and swordsages that cause me problems.
 

if you're going to treat exploits that way, you have a massive disconnect between the fiction and the game for tactical (and conversational) purposes.

<snip>

With exploits as a metagame construct, however, out of game the fighter's player can talk about his daily and encounter powers by name and their various resource costs, but this doesn't map to the game world.
Yes. It's like players comparing notes on hit points remaining, or (in a game that has them) remaining Fate Points: "You charge, you've got the Fate Points to handle it", which has no ingame analogue ("You look really lucky today!"??).

It's a general feature of metagame mechanics. Some like this, some don't mind it, some don't like it at all.

we're talking about a simple question like "Can you, Mr. Fighter, attack all 6 of those goblins in 2 rounds before they get out of range, or should we have the wizard handle that?"
Just asking the question the way you are is breaking my suspension of disbelief.
I don't see why the question is SoD-breaking at all. In prior editions, "How many things can you hit in the next two rounds" had a definite answer
I'm with Neonchameleon here. A round is not something that exists in the gameworld. The turn structure and action economy of the game don't exist in the gameworld (it's not a world of stop-motion fighting).

It's true that, at the metagame level, there's a definite answer to how many attacks the fighter can make next round. But this is equally true in 4e.

I can't help but feel that about half the fuss over this kind of stuff are literary disputes, rather than game disputes.
Intriguing. Can you elaborate?
 

I think that D&D has always had exceptions to simulation. Saving throws in pre-3E D&D (as described by Gygax in his DMG) - 3E changed this, and made them simulationist (Fort, Ref, Will). Hit points. I see 4e's AEDU, at least for martial PCs, as extending the same metagame sensibilities that gave us classic D&D saving throws, and hit points, to the realm of "active" rather than just "passive" action resolution.
Yes, I should have said 'simulation with abstraction'. I wasn't trying to say "DnD was build THIS way, or with THAT in mind"; I was saying that it always felt to me like it had been built as a simulation of a fantasy reality. Yes, some parts are abstracted, but only because they have to be. Hit points always made sense to me, as did Vancian casting. The biggest disconnect I ever felt in earlier editions was the 'cure light wounds' being more effective at lower level than 'cure critical wounds' is at high level, and that didn't really bother me.

a) Comp 2 L14 skill challenge (as a result of which each PC lost one encounter power until their next extended rest);

b) L17 combat;

c) L15 combat;

d) L7 combat;

e) L13 combat;

f) L15 combat;

g) Comp 1 L14 skill challenge;

h) L16 combat;

i) L14 combat;

j) L13 combat;

k) Comp 1 L15 skill challenge;

l) L16 combat (the L15 solo was defeated by being pushed over a bridge down a waterfall);

m) L15 combat (the solo returned later in the night, having survived the fall and climbed back up).​
That is very revealing, in more ways than you might expect.
Some observations:
1) Your party is the same level as mine
2) We'll never get a level 7 combat.
3) With my players/characters, we would have TPKed by encounter G.
This means that
4a) You (The DM) are a lot less nasty in terms of how you control the monsters, or
4b) Your players and their characters are a lot more effective than ours.

The level 7 encounter, and the regain encounter powers on a standard action thing make me suspect 4a is correct.
4b might also be correct, but I've not got enough information to go on.

The fact that after 5 battles the party was then able to survive 4 battles with no short rest means there is something very different indeed about the way your group plays.
To throw one example on the table; our party rogue is typically out of surges after the second, or maybe the third battle.
As mentioned in another thread; it was 4E where I first experienced the '15 minute adventuring day' problem. We typically wanted an extended rest after the 2nd battle, until the DM ridiculed us for it.

Mind you, party composition has always played a factor. We didn't have a leader in the party from level 4 to level 12. During that time we had 1 defender, 1 controller (who was built more as a striker) and 3 strikers.
In theory this meant we had lots of power to take down monsters quickly. In practice it meant we had no healing other than second wind and potions, and we went down just as fast, if not faster than the monsters.


And for my group, at least, these sorts of situations - encounters which force hard choice after hard choice - generate emotional intensity and pressure.
Granted, but how do they role play it exactly? How do they deal with encounters and dailies, in character?

There are many ways, I think, that I could try and set out the differecne between an RPG like 4e and a board game.
Of course there are hundreds of differences, I wouldn't ever claim otherwise. I was talking about how it feels when we're in combat. Story goes out the window until the combat is over, and then story resumes. Any interest I have in the situation is diminished during combat, despite some truly sterling role-play from the characters.

As a side note, it's that same in battle character role play that is often our downfall. Due to the character backgrounds/personalities (and to a certain extent, the player backgrounds/personalities) there is little to no strategic or tactical coordination. This makes every battle a meat grinder, regardless of it's intended encounter level.
 

1) Your party is the same level as mine
2) We'll never get a level 7 combat.
Do you know H2 Thunderspire Labyrinth? I levelled the Tower of Mysteries up, from suitable for 7th-ish to suitable for 14th-ish.

One of the encounters in that module is a demon trapped in a circle (as I ran it, a yochlol). It can get dragged into a bigger fight, but as my group played it it didn't. It tried to bargain, but they tricked its information out of it and then killed it.

3) With my players/characters, we would have TPKed by encounter G.
This means that
4a) You (The DM) are a lot less nasty in terms of how you control the monsters, or
4b) Your players and their characters are a lot more effective than ours.
I'm going to guess a bit of (a) and a bit of (b).

I can't remember all the details, but at least one of those encounters happened in waves - the one with the wyvern-riders, phalanx etc - in that (for example) the chimera wasn't released until the third or fourth round, when it became clear to the hobgoblins that a phalanx with archers backing it up was not going to be enough to take down the paladin.

And because elements of the encounter were physically separated - there was the paladin dealing with the land-based forces, while the rest of the party were 50 squares or so away dealing with the air-based forces. So the opportunities for the NPCs to maximally focus fire were constrained.

Together with this "waves" approach, I tend (not always, but certainly often) to use more enemies of party level or lower rather than fewer enemies of higher than party level (the yochlol being one exception to this, obviously).

The level 7 encounter, and the regain encounter powers on a standard action thing make me suspect 4a is correct.
The idea of limited power regaining is in DMG2, I think. I made the decision to offer the opportunity on the spot, because I thought it would introduce a bit of extra tension into the decision-making - preparing for the dragon while letting he chimera take free swings. And to that exent it worked.

4b might also be correct, but I've not got enough information to go on.

The fact that after 5 battles the party was then able to survive 4 battles with no short rest means there is something very different indeed about the way your group plays.
To throw one example on the table; our party rogue is typically out of surges after the second, or maybe the third battle.

<snip>

Mind you, party composition has always played a factor.
The PCs in my game are:

*dwarf fighter (multi-cleric)/Warpriest - strong, robust, polearm-wielding melee controller, with Athletics + Mighty Sprint is surprisingly mobile;

*elf ranger-cleric hybrid/Battlefield Archer - twin strike + some healing;

*tiefling CHA-paladin/Questing Knight - as robust as the fighter (lower hp, better defences, including Meliorating Armour), quite good damage output and more than one encounter AoE attack, some healing;

*drow chaos sorcerer (multi-monk)/Demonskin Adept - best damage dealer in the party (with a lot of close attacks - he uses the Flurry of Blows to stack on extra damage), some control also (inc from the Flurry of Blows), very mobile and a good selection of immediate actions that make him hard to hit;

*human tome wizard (multi-invoker)/Divine Philosopher - some reasonable control (Bigby's Icy Hand, Wall of Fire, Thunderwave, Twist of Space), the lowest damage dealer in the party.​

I try to spread the damage around, but they players are pretty good at focussing it on the two defenders. And the fighter, in particular, is very resilient: 126 hp, 14 surges, with a surge vaue of 34 (17 Con, Toughness, Dwarven Durabililty). And with multiple close bursts (encounter and daily), combat superiority, a lot of forced movement and knocking prone, etc, it is very hard for anyone to get away from him.

In the encounter sequence described above, the ranger was dropped to 13 hp and no surges by the fire dragon (Calastryx, from MV:TttNV), and then survived through the mooncalves, and the two encounters that followed that. The party did a fairly good job of protecting him, although at one point he did drop unconscious (but was revived with a surgeless healing potion from Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium).

As I said, I'm not the most vicious GM in the world, but I'm not a walkover either. The players play reasonably well.

Granted, but how do they role play it exactly? How do they deal with encounters and dailies, in character?

<snip>

As a side note, it's that same in battle character role play that is often our downfall. Due to the character backgrounds/personalities (and to a certain extent, the player backgrounds/personalities) there is little to no strategic or tactical coordination. This makes every battle a meat grinder, regardless of it's intended encounter level.
My players don't talk about encounters and dailies in character. They talk about attacking foes, stopping them, locking them down etc.

They play with a fairly high degree of tactical coordination, although the paladin and wizard in particular are known for going solo a bit. But the others - especially the player of the sorcerer - are very good at following along and capitalising on openings. In character friction tends to come out more in Marvel superhero team style - wisecracks at one another's expense, for example, or ragging on a particular tactical choice, rather than actively subverting one another's efforts.
 

Advice to a real life distance runner is "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Take one day of recovery for every mile raced"[/FONT]. I fail to see why actually needing rest times longer than six seconds is something you balk at on "realism" grounds. A PC is under immense stress when giving it their all in combat - it's the 3.X untiring robots, and the just peachy in six seconds warblades and swordsages that cause me problems.

i am just jumping into the discussion a bit bind here so forgive me if I am missing you or the other poster's intent, but if we are talking about encounter or daily martial powers my response wuould be this advice is to maintain optimal performance across the season. They are also talking about waiting till the next day r that evening i assume, so it isn't like you run mile and rest immediately before trying another.

I used to box and compete in martial arts and I can support you and pemerton's statements that fighting (and this isjust sport fihting) is the most tiring thing you can do. After a fight you can be so tired that you can't do much of anything. And it is also true that you usually pick your powershots carefully because you wear yourself out if you throw bombs the whole time. But my issue with daily and encounters (aside from just not liking the mechanics themselves) is they are an artificial and rigid way to simulae this for two reasons: i can keep throwing power shotsif I want until i get tired (i can keep this up for about three boxing rounds--make that i once could), most "knock out" hits (which i am loosely equating with encounterrs and dailies) are situationally dpendant (counter attacks for example where the person presents a good opening) and not doled out to a strict matmatical limit to each fight. So it just comes off to me as too gamey of a solution to the issue. For sure there were gamey elements before but we were able to ignore them or had learned to do so over the years. For me the answer isn't to add even more gamey and abstract components to a game that already strectches disbelief.
 

Intriguing. Can you elaborate?

X seems real to me, while (very similar in some ways) Y does not, is ultimately an appeal to a certain fantastical verisimilitude. Yet, the feel has very little to do with the subject matter of the story, looked at, say, from a news reporter angle. What really happened when Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser fought those thugs in Lankhmarr? Just what were the events surrouding Conan and that incident at the tower? And so forth. Or if you prefer, think of an 11 year old learning to write a book report. I know facts get left out in those formats, too, but there is at least an attempt to not color the events, but merely report them. In those ways, a lot of sword and sorcery is very much the same, and there are a zillion LotR clones.

But of course, what we really like in the feel of the story is barely hinted at by such a report. That fantastical X is acceptable while fantastical Y is not is because Author Z would tell it that way. Thus, the dispute is over a literary convention, not the logic of the events in a newspaper.

I've been quite open about this from my point of view, since 4E launched. It was very clear to me that I liked 4E because it produced events that are in the tone of what Fritz Leiber might write--with some judicious tweaking, of course. And then I compared 4E to BECMI on the same grounds, though the tweaking you had to do was a bit different in that case.

It is also no accident that such a dispute should occur on the grounds that it does. Read some of the older essays and letters from Poul Anderson, Zelazny, Leiber, etc. compared to some of their critics, and vice versa. It's all about the tone of the story not seeming real because X happens this way or Y does not happen that way!

Or, you might say, that of some of the 4E critics, that they don't think much of our taste in literature, and the favor is returned. :D
 

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