D&D is NOT Kobolds surviving Fireball

[am181d]

Let's at least agree that if a kobold falls in lava, it should die automatically, no save.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Let's at least agree that if a kobold falls in lava, it should die automatically, no save.

Darn. Can't XP You.

 

[n00bdragon]

So... you're mad that 4e DARED to make more advanced kobolds that could continue the threaten the party at levels above 1? Or... are you mad that Fireball doesn't have a clause in it that states "All kobolds in the area are struck dead"?

what is this topic i dont even

 

[MichaelSomething]

My 3.5 era 5th level Kobold Paladin begs to differ.

And good luck trying to kill a 4+ level Kobld Rouge with Improved Reflexes...

 

[satori01]

My 3.5 era 5th level Kobold Paladin begs to differ.

Yes, your Player Character with a race of X disagrees, and has every right to.

And yet people still dodge the question.


People the idea is simple:


What monsters can a Fireball (at the first level one can cast it ), out right kill presuming maximum damage.


Not I rolled all ones, or 3 twos etc, etc.


It is a way to gauge power level of character ability to monster hardiness.


People can answer a different question if they like:


should a 5th level Fighter be able to kill a Kobold in one swing?


In most editions, again except 4E, this has been almost unequivably true.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

So... you're mad that 4e DARED to make more advanced kobolds that could continue the threaten the party at levels above 1? Or... are you mad that Fireball doesn't have a clause in it that states "All kobolds in the area are struck dead"?

what is this topic i dont even

I can't speak for the original poster but I can still remember back to our first 4e game and our initial impressions of kobolds. The shifting on a miss was brilliant and really captured the feel of trying to swat the little buggers. The big chunk of hit points however felt very "non"-kobold though; and felt like they were getting forced screen-time. Like most things, you keep playing and it irks you a little less each time until it just becomes part of the campaign milieu. Obviously, this is the reason for minions but that created the reverse problem for me. Minions have never felt right, particularly at higher levels but that's more related to my preference for a less cinematic style of play.

I don't think the original poster was mad in any event, but raising an interesting point of where you set the limit for such a fundamental spell as fireball and what it should be able to achieve. 4e and how it does/did things really doesn't need to be defended, the same as any other edition.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[satori01]

So... you're mad that 4e DARED to make more advanced kobolds that could continue the threaten the party at levels above 1? Or... are you mad that Fireball doesn't have a clause in it that states "All kobolds in the area are struck dead"?

what is this topic i dont even

There is no anger here. I just want to know


" what monsters should a Fireball outright kill assuming maximum damage"


OR


"should a 5th level Fighter be able to kill a Kobold in one swing"


I think the usefulness of such opinions would be self evident in terms of designing a new edition.


Guess I was wrong.


People I am not making moral statement when I point out that from a historical sense if one edition differs from prior versions in regards to certain assumptions.


Human medicine of the last 200 years differs from the historical level of medical treatment for the lifespan of our species, pointing this out does not mean I want to go back to leaches.


I think I have given clear statements for my preferred power levels, I would like to hear from others.


Should I put you down for " a 5th level Fighter can Not kill a Kobold in a single blow, and powers used by a 5th level character should not kill Kobolds"
N00bdragon?

 

[Savage Wombat]

I agree with you, but I think kobolds vis-a-vis fireballs might not be the best example. Fireballs have lost their oomph with the hit point inflation of 3rd edition onwards - being able to do 5d6 to anything you'd encounter was useful in AD&D, and being able to do it to everything at once was awesome.

(One of my oldest D&D memories - my MU just hit 5th level and made his "know spell" for fireball. Next adventure, attacked in the night by a pack of wild wolves that have previously wreaked havoc on our little group. I wake up, see the wolves, note their poor grouping, drop the fireball. Wolves all gone. Go back to sleep.)

Fireball is one of the defining wizard spells of D&D, and should feel like it's worth casting. If you can't kill level 1 kobolds with it - that would bug me too.

 

[underfoot007ct]

Yes, your Player Character with a race of X disagrees, and has every right to.

And yet people still dodge the question.


People the idea is simple:


What monsters can a Fireball (at the first level one can cast it ), out right kill presuming maximum damage.


Not I rolled all ones, or 3 twos etc, etc.


It is a way to gauge power level of character ability to monster hardiness.


People can answer a different question if they like:


should a 5th level Fighter be able to kill a Kobold in one swing?


In most editions, again except 4E, this has been almost unequivably true.

Even with your double spacing,


I do not agree with your concept / idea,


Fireball damage as a "yardstick" is just meaningless, imo


I will dodge the idea totally


Is this odd spacing make posts better ?

 

[dkyle]

I said at the bare minimum I wanted Fireball to kill any Kobold.

Then 3.5 fails your criteria as well. A 3.5 Kobold is, inherently, no more or less survivable than a 3.5 Elf. They're just usually encountered as simple level 1 Warriors, not higher level, with full PC class levels (which is a 100% legitimate way to build 3.5 monsters).

So how do you think a Kobold with 20 levels of Rogue will fare against a level 5 Wizards Fireball? Even just 2 levels of Rogue gives them a pretty darn good chance.


Your comparison is a big strawman, because that level 1 Kobold in 3.5 does not simply become a level 1 Kobold in 4E. It becomes a minion. That level 1 (or level 3) Kobold in 4E is effectively the equivalent of a 3.5 Kobold with class levels.

So a power used at 5th level can not just obliterate what historically been one of the weakest HP wise! Monsters in the game?

Sure it can. Just use Minions.

If you want a creature that is killed in one blow, that is what Minions are designed for.

For similar level, non-minion, monsters, I would expect at least a few blows to fell them.

Just state it honestly if that is how you feel.

OK, I honestly feel that Kobolds in 4E are perfectly fine, within the context of 4E. They can serve that fodder purpose, or they can be something more. Just like in 3.5. There is no real break with history here.