D&D is NOT Kobolds surviving Fireball

[Savage Wombat]

I think you're the one using a straw man, bringing 20th level rogue kobolds into this.

Should a kobold, traditionally a Level 1/4 encounter, be able to survive a direct hit from a fireball from a 5th level character? Not a class level kobold, not a specialized kobold, a run-of-the-mill kobold straight from the book.

In other words, he thinks that kobolds in 4e have too many HP. Argue with this point, please.

 

[herrozerro]

Op, do you feel that all kobolds should be minions? Kobolds as a species just server a purpose of being felled by a single blow?

 

[LostSoul]

In other words, he thinks that kobolds in 4e have too many HP. Argue with this point, please.

There isn't much to argue with; it's a matter of taste. I don't mind that kobolds who have been trained to fight have a decent number of HP. I don't like the idea that, for example, the kobold dragonshield is a normal kobold - he should be one of the biggest and baddest kobolds weeded out from the warrens, the first-borns who killed their siblings to get more scraps of food.

I also think that fireball should do more damage in 4E, even if that means you don't get access to it at 5th level.

It is a way to gauge power level of character ability to monster hardiness.

I like this point of view. It's kind of frustrating playing a game when you know the monsters you are facing could be of any power level, and you don't really have a way to judge. In order to make informed decisions you need to have information to base those decisions on.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Sure it can. Just use Minions.

I have a stack of issues with minions and do not wish to derail the thread, so instead I'll link it back in with looking at lower "level" iconic 3e damage spells: Magic Missile and Scorching Ray.
Each of these lesser spells will automatically kill a minion but they won't automatically kill a 4hp kobold although they can kill a kobold some or most of the time depending. There's no variance with minions. A magic missile is just as effective as a Fireball and that is something that causes my gaming brain issues. I just find minions a really clunky solution (despite the elegant mechanics).

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Oni]

If Fireball can't wipe out huge swathes of low Hit Die monsters/NPCs, or potentially devastate beefier opposition, except by resorting to mechanical tricks like minions to create the illusion that it still has teeth then it should go back to the drawing board.

 

[Leatherhead]

I really want to know who keeps casting fireball, it doesn't seem like it's been a good idea in any edition.

 

[Stormonu]

There is no anger here. I just want to know


" what monsters should a Fireball outright kill assuming maximum damage"

I say the little buggers should die to minimum damage.

 

[AngryMojo]

So the argument basically goes as such:

All kobolds are killed by Fireball in D&D. (All A are B)
Some kobolds are not killed by Fireball in some editions of D&D. (Some A are not B)

To elaborare from other posts:

4th Edition Kobolds
Some 4th edition kobolds are killed by Fireball. (Some A are B)
Some 4th edition kobolds are not killed by Fireball. (Some A are not B)
All 4th edition kobold minions are killed by Fireball. (All A are B)
Some 4th edition kobold non-minions are killed by Fireball. (Some A are B)

Conclusion:
Some 4th edition kobolds are not killed by Fireball (Some A are not B)

3rd Edition Kobolds
Some 3rd edition kobolds are killed by Fireball. (Some A are B)
Some 3rd edition kobolds are not killed by Fireball. (Some A are not B)
All 3rd edition level 1 kobold warriors are killed by Fireball (All A are B)
Some 3rd edition advanced kobolds are killed by Fireball (Some A are B)

Conclusion:
Some 3rd edition kobolds are not killed by Fireball (Some A are not B)

Repeat with relevant game terminology for other editions ad nauseum.

What is the point here? Are you saying Fireball should deal more damage, or Kobolds should have fewer hit points?

 

[Mattachine]

I disagree on this one.
I'm not interested in arbitrary benchmarks based on previous editions.

 

[AngryMojo]

I disagree on this one.
I'm not interested in arbitrary benchmarks based on previous editions.

I'm inclined to agree. If the question is posed "Should a fireball kill a kobold" I think the best answer is an even split between "depends on the kobold" and "depends on the fireball."