UngeheuerLich
Legend
What about 2-5 Spell slots per level (increasing as you go up), you can merge them for higher level slots. Maximum slots per spell level = 4 or so
[L&L] Balancing the Wizards in D&D
- Thread starter Herremann the Wise
- Start date
Stormonu
NeoGrognard
This all sounds pretty good; I'm really liking the idea of how scrolls would work. I'm a bit leery on wands - sure, they can easily put a limit on what you can "put into" a wand in core (and, personally, I don't mind a wand of fly so what spells are going to be restricted is going to be contentious), but what happens when new spells get added to the system?
On the "Spellcasting is Dangerous", I don't want to see the wizard go, "Oh, it's my turn?" *Begins to cast spell and gets hit* "Oh, nah, I won't continue that spell - I'll just use my at-will Magic Missile this turn and try that Disintegrate next turn." If the wizard gets hits casting a risky spell, he needs to face the consequences (and probably lose the spell), not switch his action. Also, I want to see things like haste aging and the like return to spells. Danger shouldn't only be casting in the heat of battle - some spells just need to be naturally dangerous to cast.
As a pure side note, I'd like to see Protection scrolls - usable by ANY class, return.
On the "Spellcasting is Dangerous", I don't want to see the wizard go, "Oh, it's my turn?" *Begins to cast spell and gets hit* "Oh, nah, I won't continue that spell - I'll just use my at-will Magic Missile this turn and try that Disintegrate next turn." If the wizard gets hits casting a risky spell, he needs to face the consequences (and probably lose the spell), not switch his action. Also, I want to see things like haste aging and the like return to spells. Danger shouldn't only be casting in the heat of battle - some spells just need to be naturally dangerous to cast.
As a pure side note, I'd like to see Protection scrolls - usable by ANY class, return.
Last edited:
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️⚧️
Mike Mearls said:
I'm not particularly keen on this idea. Kind of kills the idea of a rogue being able to fake his way through a scroll, something that's been around since 1e. Also kind of kills the idea of being able to cast a higher level spell than you have slots for - assuming there are level-based slots.
I'm not overly fond of magic items burning through internally resources whether they're healing surges, spell slots, or some nebulous ability to use a daily-use magic item.
I definately liked a lot of ideas in the article.
Casting as Dangerous - I like the ideas being tossed around here, the idea that getting hit is not an autoscrew, but it is a mechanism to curb a wizard's power.
Reduced spell slots - I think this one is the key. Even though 5th level wizards in 3e have some crazy powerful spells, they don't really overpower simply because they can't throw them around that much. But at high levels not only does the wizard have the big booms....he has so many spells he doesn't really run out. If we can take out that last part, it probably will go a long way to help balance.
At-will cantrips can be a lot of fun too....heck the at-will prestigation in 4e has ridiculous mileage if you use it right.
Casting as Dangerous - I like the ideas being tossed around here, the idea that getting hit is not an autoscrew, but it is a mechanism to curb a wizard's power.
Reduced spell slots - I think this one is the key. Even though 5th level wizards in 3e have some crazy powerful spells, they don't really overpower simply because they can't throw them around that much. But at high levels not only does the wizard have the big booms....he has so many spells he doesn't really run out. If we can take out that last part, it probably will go a long way to help balance.
At-will cantrips can be a lot of fun too....heck the at-will prestigation in 4e has ridiculous mileage if you use it right.
fuindordm
Adventurer
Yes, please kill the idea of magic items just substituting a PCs abilities/resources with something else. I like most of the ideas in this blog, but scrolls should hold their own magic.
There are other ways to make them more costly. What if each spell scribed cost you 1 HP/ spell level, which didn't heal till the scroll was used?
Or what if creating a scroll of spell X required blood from a monster with ability X? Then it becomes a new form of treasure.
Or maybe scrolls are tiring to read. Or they take longer than a prepared spell. Or they are painful to read, and so require a skill check and a concentration check.
I agree that in 3e scrolls are too easy, but the solution is not to make them bland and almost useless.
There are other ways to make them more costly. What if each spell scribed cost you 1 HP/ spell level, which didn't heal till the scroll was used?
Or what if creating a scroll of spell X required blood from a monster with ability X? Then it becomes a new form of treasure.
Or maybe scrolls are tiring to read. Or they take longer than a prepared spell. Or they are painful to read, and so require a skill check and a concentration check.
I agree that in 3e scrolls are too easy, but the solution is not to make them bland and almost useless.
Herremann the Wise
First Post
I'm not too sure that as presented, you could not include both these features. Anyone can attempt to cast a scroll but it is difficult (and potentially dangerous). Rogues are good at it (and good at surviving a botched effort), while wizards can do it but only if they are desperate (and with a botched effort impacting their ability to cast spells for a duration).
Same with a high level scroll. It can be done with a lesser spell slot but with ramifications for botching. I'm sure there's a way of squeezing this sort of stuff in rather than just saying, "no they don't and no they can't".
Good points though.
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
FireLance
Legend
IIRC, there was always some element of chance in attempting to use a scroll of a higher level than you were able to cast. I can't remember the earlier rules precisely, but in 3e, you needed to make a level check (d20 + your caster level vs the scroll's caster level + 1) to use the scroll. I could see something similar happening with this rule: if the spell slot you expended was lower than the level of the spell you were trying to cast, you have to make some check to use it.
For rogues using scrolls (and spellcasters trying to use a scroll without expending a spell slot), maybe it draws on the user's life force and deals hit point damage instead?
Anyway, I like the ideas in the article. Thumbs up from me.
I really dislike the idea that casting a spell is dangerous. Fighters don't lose the ability to swing their sword if they are hit. And they are not limited by a finite amount of times they can swing it.
I would be for them losing the ability to cast this round but not losing the spell.
I am not sure how I feel about at wills will have to see how they do it.
I do think limiting spell slots is one way to go in bringing in casters powers especially at higher levels.
One thing that bothered me was the grease example complaining that a high level cleric has a -8 at higher levels to his reflex roll. That is because he is in plate and well one of the trade offs should be the it sucks to be you on something slippery. In my experience after a little while very few people fail a DC 10 save and grease becomes useless.
I do like not scaling spells or maybe a choice if it you chose to scale it takes a higher level slot.
I would be for them losing the ability to cast this round but not losing the spell.
I am not sure how I feel about at wills will have to see how they do it.
I do think limiting spell slots is one way to go in bringing in casters powers especially at higher levels.
One thing that bothered me was the grease example complaining that a high level cleric has a -8 at higher levels to his reflex roll. That is because he is in plate and well one of the trade offs should be the it sucks to be you on something slippery. In my experience after a little while very few people fail a DC 10 save and grease becomes useless.
I do like not scaling spells or maybe a choice if it you chose to scale it takes a higher level slot.
FireLance
Legend
Don't worry, I'm sure that scrolls that hold their own magic will be re-introduced to the game at some point. We can call them "true" scrolls or something.
A couple of thoughts;
Rituals (since they weren't mentioned)
1> Likely if they are going with the game design that the Wizard should not step on the Rogue's or Fighter's toes then they likely don't want to allow the reverse to occur. At least not in the base system.
The example of a significant investiture required by the Wizard to give flying to the whole group seems to set the idea that a money for magic economy is going to be discouraged.
2> This seems to be further supported by the re-work on scrolls and wands. If the designers don't want open usage of scrolls without using up prepared slots (scrolls are thus offering flexibility instead of an increase in casting slots per day) then I don't think they'll want to offer rituals in the base game as another way around the 'block'. They might provide rituals as a 'High Fantasy' module where magic is more common for people to have (to allow for Flying Knights and Rogues that can break into solid rooms).
General Points;
1> The ability to move a spell up in 'slot' level will likely lead to a reduction in spell glut. If you know how to cast 'Fireball' then you are less likely going to learn to cast the level 4 or 5 version of the AoE damage spell unless it has some real advantage. It used to be that you used higher spell slots for spells like lower level damage spells.
2> It will be interesting if the Save or Die spells have a similar treatment as damage spells. Will there be guidelines for putting a charm spell in a level 3 slot or a sleep spell in a level 5 slot. Do these spells get an improvement of more than save like number of targets affected?
3> Still, it generally seems that they are going the direction that people would want. Hopefully, more slots at low levels (the PF at will cantrips ideas seems to have caught hold) with only a few extra in width but more in depth flexibility will be good (for example maybe at 10th level a wizard has 7 slots of prepared spells of which 2 are maximum 5th level, 2 4th, 3 3rd level. The option remains to prepare a lower level spell in a higher slot.)
Rituals (since they weren't mentioned)
1> Likely if they are going with the game design that the Wizard should not step on the Rogue's or Fighter's toes then they likely don't want to allow the reverse to occur. At least not in the base system.
The example of a significant investiture required by the Wizard to give flying to the whole group seems to set the idea that a money for magic economy is going to be discouraged.
2> This seems to be further supported by the re-work on scrolls and wands. If the designers don't want open usage of scrolls without using up prepared slots (scrolls are thus offering flexibility instead of an increase in casting slots per day) then I don't think they'll want to offer rituals in the base game as another way around the 'block'. They might provide rituals as a 'High Fantasy' module where magic is more common for people to have (to allow for Flying Knights and Rogues that can break into solid rooms).
General Points;
1> The ability to move a spell up in 'slot' level will likely lead to a reduction in spell glut. If you know how to cast 'Fireball' then you are less likely going to learn to cast the level 4 or 5 version of the AoE damage spell unless it has some real advantage. It used to be that you used higher spell slots for spells like lower level damage spells.
2> It will be interesting if the Save or Die spells have a similar treatment as damage spells. Will there be guidelines for putting a charm spell in a level 3 slot or a sleep spell in a level 5 slot. Do these spells get an improvement of more than save like number of targets affected?
3> Still, it generally seems that they are going the direction that people would want. Hopefully, more slots at low levels (the PF at will cantrips ideas seems to have caught hold) with only a few extra in width but more in depth flexibility will be good (for example maybe at 10th level a wizard has 7 slots of prepared spells of which 2 are maximum 5th level, 2 4th, 3 3rd level. The option remains to prepare a lower level spell in a higher slot.)
Similar Threads
- Locked
