[L&L] Balancing the Wizards in D&D

[Majoru Oakheart]

I want my wizard to look like this:

legend of the seeker - zeddicus zu'l zorander - YouTube

I was going to use Zedd as an example as well. I like him as the archetypical D&D Wizard.

He can cast a number of very powerful spells but they require concentration and magic words, they can be interrupted simply by distracting him and he can't finish them. The more powerful of them require special components and take longer to cast.

However, at the same time he appears to have 2 nearly at-will spells that he uses throughout the series: Wizard Fire[the ability to shoot a column of fire](which all Wizards appear to have as an at-will ability in this universe) and the ability to knock people backwards. He often uses both repeatedly in the same battle.

I've always felt like this model seemed appropriate for D&D. I think Zedd would have felt very out of place if he'd started using a crossbow or darts when they were in danger.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Really? Greyhawk and DL share a lot in common? Completely different feel, very different sub-genre, races are different, history is totally different, etc. etc. Even presumed play - massive dungeon crawls vs plotsy, story based games, are at 90 degrees to each other.

They are very similar, I agree with him. What it comes down to is they are both fairly similar in terms of technology and culture.

Orcs are Orcs in both universes. Most creatures have similar backgrounds and histories. DL tended to take standard GH monsters and give them a slight spin to fit into the history of DL...but for the most part the worlds themselves were the same.

Sure, most of the actual adventuring in each of the worlds were quite different. DL concentrated on large stories that affected the entire world and the fate of every race on it. While GH often involved simple stories of looting an ancient tomb.

However, the worlds themselves are very similar. A number of stories you could come up with would feel completely at home in both worlds with almost no changes: "Orcs are attacking a nearby city and you need to stop them", "There is an ancient tomb of a powerful warrior who was said to possess a powerful sword", "A merchant hires you to protect his caravan" are all very plausible stories.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

3e operated from the premise that the player should be the one to decide how his character would mechanically progress. 3e may have offered too much of a good thing here, but it does not automatically make for less or more roleplaying. It could cut either way.

Oh, I agree. There's no reason to think that RP is 'less good' or anything in 3e over 2e. It is just that with AD&D (at least before some of the later 2e supplements) was ENTIRELY about what you did at the table. The choices you could make in chargen were trivial, few in number, and had little real impact on your character's effectiveness. Granted, that put a lot of control in the hands of the DM since basically customization options for a fighter amounted to nothing but items. Wizards had choices of what spells to put in their books, so they were a bit ahead of the pack, but mostly you took what you could get anyway.

I think my main point is that the cat is out of the bag on that. 5e isn't going to put that cat back. It WILL have a lot of options, and thus in some fundamental way it is going to be more like 3e/4e than like 1e or most of 2e. Maybe you will be able to play it in a 'retro' mode where you only get a few simple options, but my guess is even then it will be a lot more about character building than something like B/X.

The details of what the choices players have and how the mechanics work exactly is a lot less significant IMHO than the fact that all those choices exist for the players.

 

[FireLance]

Orcs are Orcs in both universes. Most creatures have similar backgrounds and histories.

Sadly, you picked a bad example. Apparently, there are no orcs on Krynn. From Wikipedia:

There is some controversy regarding orcs in the Dragonlance. The 1st edition AD&D Dragonlance Adventures hardbound rulebook states that orcs do not exist on Krynn, with ogres and minotaurs largely replacing their typical role. Second and 3rd edition Dragonlance supplements also remove orcs from the world of Krynn. The main confusion on the subject has occurred from a few Dragonlance novels and/or adventures in which the writer has accidentally included orcs. In particular, the novel Kendermore by Mary Kirchoff, where one of the main characters is a half-orc. This has occurred with other iconic races of Dungeons & Dragons, such as drow, that are not native to the Dragonlance setting. Some suggest that the presence of orcs in Dragonlance can be explained through planar or space travel as Krynn is connected to other Dungeons & Dragons worlds (where orcs exist) through the Planescape and Spelljammer settings.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Sadly, you picked a bad example. Apparently, there are no orcs on Krynn. From Wikipedia:

Oops...I had forgotten. But that's not true of many, many other creatures.

 

[DMKastmaria]

I was going to use Zedd as an example as well. I like him as the archetypical D&D Wizard.

He can cast a number of very powerful spells but they require concentration and magic words, they can be interrupted simply by distracting him and he can't finish them. The more powerful of them require special components and take longer to cast.

However, at the same time he appears to have 2 nearly at-will spells that he uses throughout the series: Wizard Fire[the ability to shoot a column of fire](which all Wizards appear to have as an at-will ability in this universe) and the ability to knock people backwards. He often uses both repeatedly in the same battle.

I've always felt like this model seemed appropriate for D&D. I think Zedd would have felt very out of place if he'd started using a crossbow or darts when they were in danger.

If those nearly at will spells were the result of 5 or 6 1st level spell slots, then the description fits a 1e MU fairly well.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

If those nearly at will spells were the result of 5 or 6 1st level spell slots, then the description fits a 1e MU fairly well.

Well, somewhat. If you've watched the series, it's fairly evident that he can cast Mage Fire over and over again. It's easy and it's something all mages learn during their basic training.

Then again, it's evident in that series that Zedd can cast as many spells as he wants each day. He isn't limited by number of usages. But any time a spell has a large effect he often has to rest a little while before doing it again.

And the kind of thing that you'd see higher level spells do in 1e-3e, he has required special components and multiple minutes to cast. None of them are the kind of things you'd see him cast in the middle of combat with enemies trying to attack him or his allies. They act much more like 4e rituals.

 

[DMKastmaria]

And the kind of thing that you'd see higher level spells do in 1e-3e, he has required special components and multiple minutes to cast. None of them are the kind of things you'd see him cast in the middle of combat with enemies trying to attack him or his allies. They act much more like 4e rituals.

From the AD&D DMG by GG page 65

"Thus, casting a spell requires that a figure be relatively motionless and concentrating on the effort during the entire course of uninterrupted casting."

"Spells cannot be cast while violently moving - such as running, dodging a blow, or even walking normally."

"It can thus be understood that spell casting during a melee can be a tricky business, for a mere shove at any time can spoil the dweomer!"

From a strict reading of the text, an AD&D MU isn't able to cast a spell at all, when someone's waving a sword in their face!

As I run it, an MU can't cast a spell with a casting time longer than 1 segment, if he's directly threatened in melee.

Many higher level AD&D spells require rare components, though perhaps not enough of them. The vast majority of combat spells can be cast within the 1 minute round, though higher level spells often take several segments, up to 9.

Of course, then there's Power Word Kill!

 

[Hussar]

Oops...I had forgotten. But that's not true of many, many other creatures.

Kinda sorta. Obviously draconians play a fairly large role in DL which is absent in GH. But, ogres are entirely different - the Irda are a peaceful agrarian bunch of ogres. Minotaurs are sailors in Krynn. Most of the stock Greyhawk baddies - giants for example, are largely absent in Krynn.

Heck, for much of the early history of the playable era of Krynn, there's no clerics at all. Wizards are all tied very tightly to specific mechanics (moon changes for example) which are absent in Greyhawk. There is no analog of the City of Greyhawk in DL (while there is one in Forgotten Realms, obviously).

DL caps classes at 18th level. Although that is edition dependent. I don't know the 3e DL stuff at all.

And the feel of the settings are completely different. DL is all about epic fantasy, cast of thousands, grand sweeping changes, etc. Greyhawk is firmly planted in Sword and Sorcery traditions.

DL's cosmology is entirely different from Greyhawk. ... I could go on and on but, I've got the feeling that it's not going to make much difference.

Could you play DL with a Greyhawk style? Sure, I suppose so. But, it kinda defeats the purpose of DL in the first place. In Greyhawk, I get shanghaid by local barons to deal with their giants menace. In Dragonlance, I get tapped by gods to deal with incursions by armies of dragons.

I don't know about you, but I see some very large differences here.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Kinda sorta. Obviously draconians play a fairly large role in DL which is absent in DL. But, ogres are entirely different - the Irda are a peaceful agrarian bunch of ogres. Minotaurs are sailors in Krynn. Most of the stock Greyhawk baddies - giants for example, are largely absent in Krynn.

Heck, for much of the early history of the playable era of Krynn, there's no clerics at all. Wizards are all tied very tightly to specific mechanics (moon changes for example) which are absent in Greyhawk. There is no analog of the City of Greyhawk in DL (while there is one in Forgotten Realms, obviously).

DL caps classes at 18th level. Although that is edition dependent. I don't know the 3e DL stuff at all.

And the feel of the settings are completely different. DL is all about epic fantasy, cast of thousands, grand sweeping changes, etc. Greyhawk is firmly planted in Sword and Sorcery traditions.

DL's cosmology is entirely different from Greyhawk. ... I could go on and on but, I've got the feeling that it's not going to make much difference.

Could you play DL with a Greyhawk style? Sure, I suppose so. But, it kinda defeats the purpose of DL in the first place. In Greyhawk, I get shanghaid by local barons to deal with their giants menace. In Dragonlance, I get tapped by gods to deal with incursions by armies of dragons.

I don't know about you, but I see some very large differences here.

i agree they both are very different if you know them. But I do think GH, DL and GH all resemble one another in that they are somewhat standard D&D type fantasy. So to someone who is just skimming through the various worlds for the first time, they will kind of look the same (while spelljammer, darksun and ravenloft will all kind of stand out as different).