Teleportation

[keterys]

3. Long range, strategic teleport should be possible at high levels, but with some drawback and risk. At those levels, there's not need to force overland travel. The real risk of abuse is the buff-scry-teleport tactic. To balance it, without something as swingy as miss-chance, nor as draconian as "No teleport to an unknown location", I'd make it a ritual with a lengthy casting time (10 minutes or more), which eliminates its use as a tactical retreat tool. I'd also implement a "jump shock" mechanic -- for example, you are stunned for 2+1d4 rounds after arrival. That makes teleporting near a place to attack shortly a viable tactic, but does not make teleporting into combat viable.

This solution keeps the thing I most dislike "sidestepping the journey, loading up with all possible bonuses and ambushing a target" without the thing I do like "emergency button to prevent TPK".

I'd like the reverse, please.

 

[Tovec]

Lots of good ideas in this thread -- as I'm coming in late, I'll sum up my favorites.

1. Teleportation should be in the game; it's intrinsic to most of the genre. The devil's in the details of implementation.

2. Short range, tactical line-of-sight teleport (ala dimension door) is fine at mid levels.

3. Long range, strategic teleport should be possible at high levels, but with some drawback and risk. At those levels, there's not need to force overland travel. The real risk of abuse is the buff-scry-teleport tactic. To balance it, without something as swingy as miss-chance, nor as draconian as "No teleport to an unknown location", I'd make it a ritual with a lengthy casting time (10 minutes or more), which eliminates its use as a tactical retreat tool. I'd also implement a "jump shock" mechanic -- for example, you are stunned for 2+1d4 rounds after arrival. That makes teleporting near a place to attack shortly a viable tactic, but does not make teleporting into combat viable.

3. Infinite range, no risk teleport should also exist -- via fixed-site portals, which can only be built with the highest level ritual magic.

In short, a few tweaks to 3E- and 4E-style teleport magic can fill most needs.

I'm of a similar mind and I just thought I'd jump in too.

I agree there is a place for dimension door, but for me it only works as a limited thing, such as vancian spellslot/day. I don't mind if they prepare it more than once but I don't want large swaths of enemies being bypassed or eliminated, or more importantly DEFENSES being bypassed or eliminated, routinely or without some effort expended. It the wizard can routinely jump past all kinds of defenses, like several times every fight, then it won't work for me. But that said, that is a large area to maneuver in with a lot of changes that can be made. Oh, I also would prefer a line of effect rule instead of line of sight, but that is just personal preference. Being able to see the destination works most of the time, but if it is blocked by a wall of force or similar kind of barrier then I think it should be a barrier. I see DD as more of a skip or squeeze through the space between, instead of a disappearance in one place and reappearance in another.

As for regular teleport, I love some of the ideas presented here, but I don't like a few of the direct solutions provided. I have some of my own.

For general teleporting, I like the idea back on page 1 or 2:

You can teleport 1 person to a location of your choice in one action.

You can teleport multiple persons to a general location in one action.

You can teleport multiple person to a location of your choice after a hour casting per person.

I think the "2 of 3 rule" can and should be applied to many iconic spells.

But I disagree on the 2/3 and what the third should be. Personally, outside of strong (very high level) magic I think it should be a 1/3 most of the time. Unfortunately I've never felt the time limit aspect to be a good limitation. Either, you have more than enough time, making 10 minutes all but irrelevant to spend on a spell, or they are too long to be used in a crunch when you truly need a teleport spell to get away. Being dazed on landing has a similar problem for me. The only thing the 10 minute casting and dazed on landing do is stop people from scry,teleport,fry,teleport (or variations) but there are a lot of better limiting factors which make more sense. Otherwise those limits don't really matter.

Personally I feel the best limiter is of accuracy. If you are always assured to be off by a number of miles, be that a fixed value of 5-100 miles or a percentage of the distance traveled (which I actually really liked) then that is fine. I feel that should be the expected outcome instead of the undesired few percent. If you area always out by that factor then it eliminates the scry and fry tactic from the get go.

From there I can understand putting fixes or limits on it. Like if you have never been to a place then the distance out changes as well, you don't know exactly how far you are from your target, or in what direction. You could be 80 leagues from the place you meant to be or you could be the next street over. That is assuming you don't know where you are going, if you DO then the miss chance could be lower. If it is your childhood home where you spent most of your life then I could see appearing at the outskirts of town, or a field where you used to play, or (if you are lucky) right inside your old bedroom. But once again, for me it makes a lot more sense if you are NOT expected to land in your room, that you are ALWAYS going to be off target, but aren't sure how much.

Adding more weight, more passengers and similar aspects from previous versions of teleport should be MORE factors (or higher degree of being off target).

Next, if there is no safe spot EXCEPT the spot you are aiming for, such as a single room in the middle of a solid stone mountain, then I want the spell just not to work - instead of the silly rules of being buried or shunted to the next free space. I don't really want my players trying that at all, unless they have something to hit, not because they could die from doing it but because it is all but impossible -the spell fails.

Now I've said a couple of times that I think you could have something to hit, or aim for. That is where teleportation circles come into play. If you are trying to hit a location and that location has a teleportation circle then ignore the miss chance for being off target. DMs can decide how hard, or costly, or time consuming it is to make these circles. I would want big elaborate stone circles with intricate carvings in order to make the circle work properly, others may want something simple involving special salts or whatever and that is fine too. But that would be my number one way to consistently be on target.

Also, for my money, if you are teleporting FROM a circle then you can ignore issues of carrying limit or party size (passengers) when casting the spell. Because then it isn't like you are doing it constantly or often, it is only when you happen to find these circles (or make them).

Also, in general, I don't need the circles to be linked per se. I can understand them even coming with a lock to ensure unwanted travelers can't use them. (The lock could be a key, item, soil, passphrase, etc. used at the time of casting TO the circle before traveling or arriving.)

An honourable mention to the whole "have to be invited thing" or passing the threshold which I would institute as a general rule as well, but I think that a lot of what I've proposed further up solves a lot of those problems.

 

[GSHamster]

Here's another idea:

Teleporting is very draining on the caster. For one hour after the teleport, the caster cannot cast spells.

This is not swingy, the teleport is reliable, and useful. At the same time, it's not something wizard likes doing, and you certainly don't want to teleport into danger.

 

[Lanefan]

On teleport: the first published high-level exploration module, Descent Into the Depths of the Earth, has a teleport-nerf written into it. This suggests to me that the designers actually didn't intend teleport to operate as an "adventure-winning" ability. (I assume they thought that it would allow boring/headache-cauasing travel to be skipped, as [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] has suggested.)

I'll go one further and suggest they also assumed t-port would not become SOP over the long term due to the risks involved.

On Knock: if there is no wizard to cast fireball, the rogue can't take his/her place. So why should the wizard be able to take the rogue's place? And why should the wizard be better at this back-up role than the rogue?

One thing the 'Knock' spell (or Chime of Opening) does is leave adventure design space open for doors/chests/portals (even teleport portals!) that cannot be opened by physical means. Yes you can use a puzzle a la "Speak friend and enter" but that isn't to everyone's tastes either...

This is the paradox of D&D reform: everyone can see that it needs changing, but a big chunk of players seems to have desires that are in tension with any of the necessary changes!

I don't so much think it needs further changing; I think it needs a bunch of changes already made to be undone.

I mean, let's face it: teleport abuse is almost exclusively a 3e-4e problem; it came up rarely if ever in 1e-2e. So why not just go right back to the 1e version and stop there?

Banning is easier and faster (disclaimer idea!) than creating things.

I very much disagree. Once players see something in the PH banning that thing becomes difficult; impossible in some groups.

Lanefan

 

[Lanefan]

Personally I feel the best limiter is of accuracy. If you are always assured to be off by a number of miles, be that a fixed value of 5-100 miles or a percentage of the distance traveled (which I actually really liked) then that is fine. I feel that should be the expected outcome instead of the undesired few percent. If you area always out by that factor then it eliminates the scry and fry tactic from the get go.

I'd far rather see there be at least a decent chance of getting where you want to go, particularly if it's very familiar (scrying doesn't count).

Next, if there is no safe spot EXCEPT the spot you are aiming for, such as a single room in the middle of a solid stone mountain, then I want the spell just not to work - instead of the silly rules of being buried or shunted to the next free space. I don't really want my players trying that at all, unless they have something to hit, not because they could die from doing it but because it is all but impossible -the spell fails.

Then how *does* one get there? (assuming this room in the middle of the mountain is just that: a room, or cavern, with no doors or exits)

I've always liked the idea of putting a BBEG's lair in the middle of a mountain and making it only accessible by teleport; it's a simple way of keeping out the distracting riff-raff...

Now I've said a couple of times that I think you could have something to hit, or aim for. That is where teleportation circles come into play. If you are trying to hit a location and that location has a teleportation circle then ignore the miss chance for being off target. DMs can decide how hard, or costly, or time consuming it is to make these circles. I would want big elaborate stone circles with intricate carvings in order to make the circle work properly, others may want something simple involving special salts or whatever and that is fine too. But that would be my number one way to consistently be on target.

This works except when you're trying to get somewhere for the first time; see my BBEG-in-a-mountain example above.

Side note: it only just now occurred to me that the concept of teleport always being off by 5-100 miles is probably deadlier in the long run than the 1e version! You could come out in a gorge, or on a mountaintop, or in a lake, or miles out to sea...

Lanefan

 

[Tovec]

I'd far rather see there be at least a decent chance of getting where you want to go, particularly if it's very familiar (scrying doesn't count).

Right, okay so that is the scale I'm talking about. If the "off chance" on a known and very familar location is say.. 1d4 (as an example) miles from target, every time. Then there is a decent chance you'll end up within sight of where you wanted to be. If you are going somewhere you aren't familiar with it could be 3d20+6 (as an example) miles from target.
Scale up or down for other variables. If you are a very accomplished caster (and solo) and trying to hit "home" then you could end up in your bedroom on a lucky roll, you could end up in the field you used to play in. You aren't more than a few minutes (an hour on the outside?) travel from your home either way. If you are with a lot of people then you are more likely to be off target in some other way, even if you are accomplished.

I liked the idea of this being modified with distance traveled as well, but I'm not sure how to incorporate it or how to scale it. The figures of course need some modifying but that was the general idea I was talking about.

Then how *does* one get there? (assuming this room in the middle of the mountain is just that: a room, or cavern, with no doors or exits)

I've always liked the idea of putting a BBEG's lair in the middle of a mountain and making it only accessible by teleport; it's a simple way of keeping out the distracting riff-raff...

Right, okay so first, how does one get there? Carefully? Tunnel? If the room is in the middle of a mountain and there is no other way to get there then I'm assuming the person designed it to be inaccessible. You know, to keep out the riff-raff.

Next, the guy who made it and lives there and keeps it as his lair would know the location and be able to teleport in. Maybe adding a nice teleportation circle to ensure his arrival. (He could possibly even lock it and give the keys only to trusted lieutenants. Something the party then neesd to exploit.)

The idea in either case was to make sure that people don't just end up dead because of a poor roll. I'd prefer them to fail at getting there at all. Preferably that would be off target, aiming for that room inside the mountain you could end up on the mountain instead. But that only works for me if it is within the margin of error. I don't like having the party TPK because of a faulty roll, it should be something that is intentional to keep people out not just plain luck.
That is the whole TPK or auto-win discussed earlier.

This works except when you're trying to get somewhere for the first time; see my BBEG-in-a-mountain example above.

Side note: it only just now occurred to me that the concept of teleport always being off by 5-100 miles is probably deadlier in the long run than the 1e version! You could come out in a gorge, or on a mountaintop, or in a lake, or miles out to sea...

Lanefan

Right, so that is two parts that I wanted to address and partially avoid. If it is somewhere you have never been before the spell can still work. If you are aiming for a specific city then you might be off by a days travel or off by a whole kingdom depending on the miss chance and how far you are traveling. If it is necessary to hit the city then maybe it should have a teleportation circle so that people who are trying to teleport in CAN on their first try (or with a reasonable margin of error for not knowing where it is). I would say that if you can't picture the city on a map (or in your mind) then you probably shouldn't be able to hit it in the first place.

Also, the whole "over a lake or gorge" thing is also tied into the solid stone. I would put an amendment that you teleport to solid ground. Edge of a cliff is fine, off the cliff isn't. Underground isn't.

 

[Lanefan]

Right, okay so first, how does one get there? Carefully? Tunnel? If the room is in the middle of a mountain and there is no other way to get there then I'm assuming the person designed it to be inaccessible. You know, to keep out the riff-raff.

Excatly, yet the PCs are the riff-raff trying to get in

Next, the guy who made it and lives there and keeps it as his lair would know the location and be able to teleport in. Maybe adding a nice teleportation circle to ensure his arrival. (He could possibly even lock it and give the keys only to trusted lieutenants. Something the party then neesd to exploit.)

Exactly what I did in my game...except the party gave away the key without realizing what they had; and sooner or later they're going to be expected to go back there...

The idea in either case was to make sure that people don't just end up dead because of a poor roll. I'd prefer them to fail at getting there at all. Preferably that would be off target, aiming for that room inside the mountain you could end up on the mountain instead. But that only works for me if it is within the margin of error. I don't like having the party TPK because of a faulty roll, it should be something that is intentional to keep people out not just plain luck.
That is the whole TPK or auto-win discussed earlier.

Also, the whole "over a lake or gorge" thing is also tied into the solid stone. I would put an amendment that you teleport to solid ground. Edge of a cliff is fine, off the cliff isn't. Underground isn't.

(quoted out of order, to combine points)

What you're doing here is taking risk and replacing it with inconvenience. They aren't the same. If there's nothing involved but inconvenience then teleport will become SOP - just with more grumbling about the inconvenience. But if there's actual risk involved - even if slight - they oftentimes just won't do it unless they really have to...and that's the point.

If it is somewhere you have never been before the spell can still work. If you are aiming for a specific city then you might be off by a days travel or off by a whole kingdom depending on the miss chance and how far you are traveling. If it is necessary to hit the city then maybe it should have a teleportation circle so that people who are trying to teleport in CAN on their first try (or with a reasonable margin of error for not knowing where it is). I would say that if you can't picture the city on a map (or in your mind) then you probably shouldn't be able to hit it in the first place.

This is all fine, except for me the miss chance should include a small risk of danger either by coming out too high or too low.

You know, someone else mentioned it earlier in this thread but nobody followed up: a pretty good example of how teleport could work is Harry Potter's translocation. You can only take yourself (HP allows passengers, I'd lose this) and there's a risk that not all of you gets there. For mass transit there's Portkeys, single-use items that take whoever is touching them - in some cases at a predetermined time - to a predetermined location set during casting.

Lanefan

 

[keterys]

I mean, let's face it: teleport abuse is almost exclusively a 3e-4e problem; it came up rarely if ever in 1e-2e. So why not just go right back to the 1e version and stop there?

Hmm - it's not a problem at all in 4e that I've seen. It is most obviously a problem in 3e, but I remember it coming up in a high level 2e game as well (and see no reason that wouldn't have come up in 1e as well, but the memory may be foggy)

 

[Neonchameleon]

This solution keeps the thing I most dislike "sidestepping the journey, loading up with all possible bonuses and ambushing a target" without the thing I do like "emergency button to prevent TPK".

I'd like the reverse, please.

Very very easy. You can only teleport to the location of a teleportation circle you know the code to. Teleportation circles take a week to create or so and are easily broken if they aren't literally carved into rock. But this means you can teleport back to your stronghold quite easily at the cost of admitting defeat (especially as your fastest way back to where you were is now Phantom Steed).

As for teleporting into the BBEG's lair, that's just as easy. The BBEG needs his own teleport anchor. You need to somehow steal the password. And then make it out past the defences - everyone knows the security on teleport circes can be broken (although the hubristic may think it won't happen to them).

Here's another idea:

Teleporting is very draining on the caster. For one hour after the teleport, the caster cannot cast spells.

This is not swingy, the teleport is reliable, and useful. At the same time, it's not something wizard likes doing, and you certainly don't want to teleport into danger.

Wanna bet? Teleport is just that good. Wizard 1 buffs then teleports everyone else in. Wizard 2 takes part in the combat and then teleports you away.

And [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION], Teleport has been known to be an AD&D problem with groups up against the odds - it never has in 4e.

 

[Tovec]

Excatly, yet the PCs are the riff-raff trying to get in
Exactly what I did in my game...except the party gave away the key without realizing what they had; and sooner or later they're going to be expected to go back there...
(quoted out of order, to combine points)

What you're doing here is taking risk and replacing it with inconvenience. They aren't the same. If there's nothing involved but inconvenience then teleport will become SOP - just with more grumbling about the inconvenience. But if there's actual risk involved - even if slight - they oftentimes just won't do it unless they really have to...and that's the point.
This is all fine, except for me the miss chance should include a small risk of danger either by coming out too high or too low.

You know, someone else mentioned it earlier in this thread but nobody followed up: a pretty good example of how teleport could work is Harry Potter's translocation. You can only take yourself (HP allows passengers, I'd lose this) and there's a risk that not all of you gets there. For mass transit there's Portkeys, single-use items that take whoever is touching them - in some cases at a predetermined time - to a predetermined location set during casting.

Lanefan

By in large it seems we agree then. The couple parts you disliked from my explanation were that there SHOULD be risk of death, which is fine. That is either something that can be amended to the base rule or something that can be stripped from the rule. It is also a relatively minor part. Again, for ME I would disallow the players from going somewhere that wasn't solid ground beneath their feet. I would prefer the spell to simply fail if all other choices are death, as per my version of teleport.

If that doesn't work for you that's fine. Get rid of the off by X miles and replace it with an X chance of death. Seems simple enough. Everything else about my version seems to stand true for both of us.

As far as 1e: You'll have to excuse me because I don't know 1e's version and have never played 1e either. I haven't actually seen anything on this board about how 1e's version works, only that it is better than the broken 3e version. Also, it seems like things may have changed as far as balance from 1e to practically any other version. So simply taking 1e for teleport may not work when used in ALL other versions of DnD. But that is only a possibility instead of an assurance, I just thought I'd mention it.

Small question: if your only objections to my version are that it doesn't have a option for a TPK - which you seem to value and which I despise - is everything else workable or not?

I did bring up how I see interaction with teleportation circles, locks (and keys), party hindrance, accuracy hindrance, issues with length of casting.

Outside of "1e good, 3e bad" I don't actually know your position on the subject Lanefan.