Teleportation

[wrightdjohn]

Also, "don't play with jerks" is good when you can get it but not all of us have that luxury. Sometimes it is a jerk DM and you are a player. Sometimes it is a jerk player when you are a DM. And sometimes it is a jerk player when you are another player. You can quit a game with a bad DM but then you have to find another game. You can kick that player if you are the DM, but hopefully you still have enough to continue playing. Or you can complain to the DM about the jerk player and sometimes nothing comes of it, which leads to you dealing with it or quitting.
BUT if the rule isn't so easily exploited in the first place then you don't need to quit, boot or suffer through. If it isn't an issue then there is nothing to discuss. Not trying to fix the issue doesn't make it go away. Just like not-engaging doesn't stop the jerk from being a jerk.

I am always amazed at the belief that rules can keep DMs or players from being jerks. Jerkiness is part of their character. While you might over time change that, I really do think that "don't play with jerks" is the best policy.

As DM, I don't even allow debates at the table. We can discuss any ruling on non-game time. If I think the argument is a good one then I change in the future. If I think my ruling turned out really bad for the player then I make it up. That is rare though due to experience DMing if nothing else. This rule is the best rule ever for DMs. Just don't let it start.

Here is the conversation....

1. The fireball explodes. Save for half damage Rorik.
2. Hey I'm outside the area of effect of a fireball.
3. While you contemplated how in the world a fireball could reach you, you failed to dodge out of the way of the fireball.

 

[Neonchameleon]

If your players are scrying and frying maybe you should ask them why they want to avoid all the cool stuff on the way.

Because they are y'know, actually roleplaying? Because in character they are taking threats seriously and want to take them out efficiently and safely and, most of all, don't want to die? Scry and Fry is their best way to stay alive and beat the bad guys - and they can go griffon riding when things aren't threatening the world.

It's like Mass Effect. Shepherd is presented by this race against time in character. Which means that in character based on the fiction you chase Saren down as fast as possible. But if you are playing against the metagame resolution system you don't do this. You survey half the planets in the galaxy for minerals, and the absolute last places you visit are the ones with main plot on them.

There's a huge disconnect between doing what's smart and matches the fiction (Scry and Fry) and doing what gives the most fun (exploration). And these are two things that should not be in conflict.

Plenty of groups I know don't have an issue because the players are not interested in always taking the easy way out because that is not fun they don't go looking for ways to circumvent what the DM has planned.

Plenty of Player Characters therefore are willing to stake the fate of the world on them having fun beating things up. It's a case of either OOC you can be a jerk and scry and fry or IC you can be a jerk and gamble with the fate of [wherever] needlessly. I don't want to be forced to make that choice.

BTW airships way more cooler and fun than teleport.

Which is why if one of my characters wants a honeymoon they will take an airship. If they want to save the world or stop the bad guy, they will go for effective over cool.

Airships may be cool - but they are also sitting ducks.

Usually though most rogues I have seen have an item that lets them cast knock in those kind of cases.

Thus making them even more redundant because other people could be carrying those items.

So you need to be as quiet as possible to get through the locked door so now the party has a choice make as much noise breaking a door down and if it is magically locked that is going to be difficult.

So you pry it off its hinges. Next question: Why do you need to do it quietly? To not alert the guards? Either that's a luxury or this is a railroad plot. If it's a luxury then why does the wizard need Knock?

 

[tlantl]

I wonder how many players actually read the scry spell after seeing that scrying an area was sufficient to reduce the chance of mishap to studied carefully. if they ever really did they would find that they couldn't actually do it. the spell's duration is 1 minute per level. Studying closely takes an hour.

Each casting of the scry spell takes an hour. It also requires some intimate knowledge of the person being scryed upon or that person gets a significant bonus to their save vs the spell.

I'd say that half of the problem with this method of assault is really bad interpretation of the spells involved.

It would help if the weight limit was measured from the caster's current level rather than just saying that for every three levels they can take another body along, since this alone would make such travel as a group impossible without at least two casters until the caster was around 18th level.

I actually had to read the spell three times before I realized there was no stipulation on the caster's current level as there was in the past. Seems to me to be a major faux pas.

As for using the spell to bypass all of the stuff in between, well it's going to happen. If the party wants to play this way they certainly have that option but as I see it they are really just cutting their own throats. Teleporting to the main chamber to fight the arch fiend means they don't get the experience points or treasure from all of the stuff they bypassed. This leaves the others to regroup and carry on as before, maybe even resurrecting their fearless leader, but someone is certainly going to fill that void.

As a short term tactic it might be the answer but in the long run it only serves to make reaching him the second time all that harder since he won't be so easily scryed the next time.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Teleporting to the main chamber to fight the arch fiend means they don't get the experience points or treasure from all of the stuff they bypassed.

The characters don't know about experience points. But they know about catching the enemy off-guard being usually advantageous.

Again, metagame and fiction come in an unnneccessary conflict. If it wasn't such a damn common tactic once it's available, you should actually give your players all that experience points for the monsters they cirvumvented, because they proved how clever they were in ignoring the enemies defenses. In 3E and 4E, XP was usually gained for overcoming challenges (4E also added story awards for achieving goals), not just for bringing down every enemy they found to 0 hit points. Not that I'd be really advocating this, but if we really want to reward "smart play", we shouldn't demand the players to hack down every monster they ever see. We should reward them for circumventing them and avoid unnecessary dangers by their cleverness. If they know there is a Troll guarding the bridge, they shouldn't be only compelled to scream "XP" and charge in - it would be nice if they had a reason to find an alternate, safer route. Scry & Fry is just the uber-lame variant of this, because it involves no real thinking anymore, just pressing the right buttons on your character sheet.

 

[tlantl]

The characters don't know about experience points. But they know about catching the enemy off-guard being usually advantageous.

Again, metagame and fiction come in an unnneccessary conflict. If it wasn't such a damn common tactic once it's available, you should actually give your players all that experience points for the monsters they cirvumvented, because they proved how clever they were in ignoring the enemies defenses. In 3E and 4E, XP was usually gained for overcoming challenges (4E also added story awards for achieving goals), not just for bringing down every enemy they found to 0 hit points. Not that I'd be really advocating this, but if we really want to reward "smart play", we shouldn't demand the players to hack down every monster they ever see. We should reward them for circumventing them and avoid unnecessary dangers by their cleverness. If they know there is a Troll guarding the bridge, they shouldn't be only compelled to scream "XP" and charge in - it would be nice if they had a reason to find an alternate, safer route. Scry & Fry is just the uber-lame variant of this, because it involves no real thinking anymore, just pressing the right buttons on your character sheet.

At my table they would get squat.

If leaving a major threat in place is the same as overcoming it then you are welcome to give all the awards you want.

I guess it's all a matter of perspective. I don't usually set up great plot lines where the main antagonist is apparent. Sometimes this is a good change of pace but seldom do I use world shattering events or powerful, easily found bad guys. Sometimes the bad guy is really just a powerful merchant with a sense of humor. Killing him off would take a whole hell of a lot more than just suddenly appearing in his living room. And most are like him. They ain't super powerful and dangerous because they're stupid.

 

[Dausuul]

This is the sort of thing I'd like to see in the way of teleportation spells, from lowest to highest level. "Foundation stones" are rare and expensive material components which cannot be teleported--any attempt to teleport or travel to another plane while carrying a foundation stone simply fails. (The goal is to ensure that you can't use personal teleportation spells to get where you want to be, then build a portal or establish a sanctuary and bring all your friends. There are other ways this could be handled, but foundation stones seemed like a solution that was both elegant and flavorful.)

Low-Level (1-3)
Blink: You teleport up to 50 feet. You cannot take other living creatures with you, and you must have line of sight to the destination.
Desperate Escape: Up to 12 willing subjects within 25 feet teleport to a random location. Roll 1d8 to determine the direction and 3d6 x 100 feet to determine distance. If this would land you inside a solid object, you are shunted to the nearest empty space. Casting this spell is incredibly stressful; it expends all of your remaining spell slots and stuns you for 1d4 rounds.

Mid-Level (4-5)
Dimension Door: You teleport up to 400 feet. You cannot take other living creatures with you, but do not need line of sight to the destination.
Command Portal: You temporarily open or close a teleportation portal. The change lasts for 5 minutes, after which the portal reverts to its previous state. An open portal can be used by travelers from either end.
Plane Shift: This is actually multiple spells, one for each destination plane. Up to 12 willing subjects within 25 feet travel to a parallel plane such as the Feywild or the Plane of Shadow. They arrive at a location matching their departure point. Another casting is required to return to the plane of origin. Parallel planes can often be used to cover distance more rapidly or avoid obstacles, but they contain hazards of their own.

High-Level (6-7)
Familiar Teleport: You teleport to any location on the same plane where you have physically been present. You cannot take other living creatures with you.
Portal Mastery: You permanently open or close a teleportation portal. An open portal can be used by travelers from either end.
Planar Travel: This is actually multiple spells, one for each destination plane. Up to 12 willing subjects within 25 feet travel to a transitory plane such as the Elemental Chaos or the Astral Plane. They arrive next to a one-way portal back to their departure point. This portal lasts for 1d6+6 days before dissipating. Transitory planes can be used to travel to more distant realms such as the Abyss or the elemental planes.
Sanctuary: Up to 12 willing subjects within 25 feet of you are teleported to your prepared sanctuary. Preparing a sanctuary takes 1 week and requires a foundation stone. You can only have one sanctuary at a time.

Extreme High-Level (8-9)
Create Portal: You create two linked teleportation portals. Before the spell can be cast, the portals must be physically constructed; each one takes 1 week to build and requires a foundation stone. The portal is created in an inactive state, but you can activate or deactivate it by concentrating for 1 round.
True Teleport: You teleport to any location on the same plane. You cannot take other living creatures with you.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

At my table they would get squat.

If leaving a major threat in place is the same as overcoming it then you are welcome to give all the awards you want.

Well, I did specifically state that they killed the major threat, didn't I? The evil bad guy that was leading it all is dead after the scry & fry. His minions - well, maybe we mop them up later, or maybe not.

 

[Manbearcat]

I am always amazed at the belief that rules can keep DMs or players from being jerks. Jerkiness is part of their character. While you might over time change that, I really do think that "don't play with jerks" is the best policy.

I think if we get too broad and discuss the very generic topic of "jerkdom within humanity" that does not help us to diagnose the very specific underpinnings of the question (i) "with regards to teleportation usage in DnD, what is (are) the root cause (s) of jerkdom" and then attempt to resolve it by ruminating upon the question of (ii) "how can we limit/end this jerkdom?" Within the scope of question (i), there are specific issues that can be zeroed in on. If that is true, then there are specific resolutions that may be attempted to curtail the offender's access to the means that allow them to indulge in the behavior. That way you don't have to hope that punitive measures or social operative conditioning do the trick.

In every area of life, you could apply the exact opposite of the "precautionary principle" and just throw up your hands and vaguely say: "Well, jerkdom is intrinsic to being human. There are no policy or infrastructural provisions or revisions that will change this reality and operatively condition jerkdom out of humanity. Therefore, do nothing on the macro-policy/infrastructural/mechanical level and just handle everything on a micro basis." Both extremes (absolute adherence to the "precautionary principle" or to its opposite philosophy) are not particularly helpful to a profound understanding of life issues as they basically promote lack of scrutiny and intellectual apathy. What follows is lack of progress (where needed) or a lack of conservation (where needed).

 

[keterys]

I think there's a difference between making it impossible to be a jerk, and helping things along.

The recent Olympics badminton thing is a good example where the rules of a game encouraged people to do something unfun and jerkish, and the "DMs" had to step in. It'd be _way_ better if the system itself were setup to stop that in the first place.

 

[Manbearcat]

I think there's a difference between making it impossible to be a jerk, and helping things along.

The recent Olympics badminton thing is a good example where the rules of a game encouraged people to do something unfun and jerkish, and the "DMs" had to step in. It'd be _way_ better if the system itself were setup to stop that in the first place.

Absolutely, that is a good anecdote to express my point. Rather than depending upon the notion of pride and "good faith" sportsmanship to curtail such behavior as throwing a match to manipulate seeding, it would be much better if it was expressly forbidden within the written framework of the competition.

However, given how often Teleport affects games (both in spirit and in functional play), I think an example more endemic (such as doping) to the philosophy of "fairness in and legitimacy of competition" would map slightly better.