D&D 5E Too many knowledge skills.

[GX.Sigma]

Someone once had the idea of giving knowledge skills as a bonus to characters with high Int, like extra languages back in the day. Then it can be removed entirely from most backgrounds.

 

[Libramarian]

Any Knowledge skills are too much IMO. I would rather just be fairly generous assuming that the PCs automatically know basic things related to their class and background, and then have them seek out and roleplay with NPCs if they need special information.

 

[n00bdragon]

Skills in general, rather than empowering players to do or know certain stuff, more often serve as a boundary for what they can't do and that's terrible.

"Oh, you didn't put X points in Perform (Dance)? Well your character has two left feet then. No points in Knowledge (Local)? Guess you can't find an inn."

For every example of a player using a skill to do something extraordinary you can find a hundred (particularly when it comes to knowledge skills) of DMs tossing out checks that you and I, joe shmoe nobody, could not possibly fail simply to inject the skills in the game and make them "matter". To make a point open up your monster manual to any given page. Without looking at the name of the entry simply look at the picture. Can you figure out what sort of creature that is? Undead, outsider, elemental, etc? Your character lives and dies by his knowledge of such creatures and fights them almost every day. Do you really think he can't tell the animated blob of water is an elemental or that mind flayers aren't from this world?

Getting back to the point of knowledge skills though when you fragment them across a variety of subjects you simply decrease the amount that anyone is allowed to know and encourage wild metagaming. No one wants to spend their limited and valuable pool of available skills on things which will probably never come up so they spend them on skills with mechanical uses and then rely on the DM to ignore the RAW on knowledge. This is how the rules should be. I would say there should only be ONE knowledge skill, call it Extraordinary Knowledge. Everyone knows basic things but on those occasions where the DM determines that average joe couldn't possibly figure out X there's a skill for that. If you need to granulate it then give characters bonuses to EK when rolling on particular subjects. You don't have a separate saving throw for fear and mind control. They are both will saves with modifiers if relevant. Why should skills be any different?

 

[I'm A Banana]

I love knowledge checks for plotline advancement, exploration, etc. but it really got old when players were calling for knowledge rolls at the beginning of every combat.

Yeah, that is annoying.

Try this:

Knowledge & Lore
[sblock]
There are four main "tiers" of knowledge:

1. Common Knowledge: This knowledge is effectively free to all. All characters know this right off the bat. For instance, everyone knows basically what a halfling is.
2. Specialized Details: This knowledge requires some experience and familiarity. A character belonging to a particular class, race, or background knows this information, but no one of that class does not. For instance, knowing a particular halfling whistle-tune requires that one have been a halfling. Bards have a chance to know ANY Specialized Knowledge. DMs can always make exceptions for unique characters, as well: a dwarf raised among halflings might count at a halfling instead of a dwarf for purposes of Specialized Details.
3. Exclusive Information: This knowledge requires a great deal of attention, or at least some lucky history and a good memory, to know. A character must belong to a particular race, class, or background, and must ALSO have an INT score of at least 16. For instance, knowing what halfling whistle-tune was popular when the Elf Lord visited 100 years ago is something that maybe some of his elven entourage or some of the old halflings of the village will know -- or perhaps the PC halfling rogue just happened to have that particular tune whistled to her in her crib by her mother, and happens to remember it exactly.
4. Secret Lore: This knowledge is deliberately obscured by others, and difficult to find. Secret lore doesn't come naturally to any character: in order to find it out, the character will require some sort of active research. For instance, knowing that the Elf Lord who died shortly after visiting the halflings 100 years ago sealed his tomb with a popular halfling whistle-tune isn't something that's known to anyone casually -- the PC's will have to talk to some old halflings or young-ish elves to find that out.

In general, the DM should tell you if you know something when you might need to know it. For instance, the DM might simply describe the monsters in front of you as goblins, and say that this is common knowledge: these creatures are called goblins, and they are known to be dangerous and sneaky. The DM might also do this for specialized details: your Cleric might know what a skeleton does and how to effectively fight one (ie: not with swords).

If you think your character might know something, but the DM hasn't told you, don't be afraid to ask: "Does my cleric know anything about this zombie?" might be all the cue a DM needs to tell you ALL ABOUT the zombie, or at least to tell you how this zombie might not fit into your cleric's usual knowledge.

If you'd like your character to find out something that they don't already know, your character can perform research. Your elf fighter might be able to quickly learn all about zombies and halfling whistle-songs, if they research them. Research generally takes the form of asking NPC's who already have the knowledge to share it with you, or consulting written records to see if anyone wrote down the knowledge. This can cost time and GP, but for common knowledge, specialized details, and exclusive information, it's probably possible to do a little legwork and find it out, even if you need to bribe a few people or buy a few drinks to do it. For DMs, this can generally be handled during down-time, requiring a Charisma (for talking to NPC's) or Intelligence (for poking into books) check (DC 13 and about 25 gp for specialized details, DC 16 and about 75 gp for exclusive information). Upon success, the character finds the knowledge they seek. Of course, rarer information should require higher DC's and more GP, while common information should be cheaper and require lower DC's.

For Secret Lore, the process is usually much more specific. To find out the weaknesses of vampires, you can probably ask a vampire-hunter or read a clerical treatise for some exclusive information -- some charm or some knowledge and a few gold coins and you remove your obstacles. To find out the weaknesses of a specific vampire, you may have to consult a specific scholar, or read a specific account of her dark origins. Generally, this kind of knowledge can be treated like treasure: awarded for successful completion of an adventure (or chain of adventures).
[/sblock]

 

[howandwhy99]

I don't really want skills, so it isn't a problem for me. The easiest solution is simply not to use what you don't want.

 

[Grimmjow]

Do we really need Forbidden, Geographical, Heraldic, Historical, Local, Magical, Natural, Planar, Religious, Societal, Underdark, and Undead Lore as separate skills?

i like the large list of knowledge skills. makes its funner when you can use one!

 

[Roger]

Hmmm. I think it's mostly fine; there might be a few tweaks here and there between playtest and final production.

Do we need them all? Probably not. Does it hurt anything to have a whole bunch defined? Not to my perception it doesn't.

If I had a player who said "Alright look I know my guy is a Commoner but he was, like, raised by wolves, so can I take Natural Lore instead of Local Lore?" I would say heck sure knock yourself out.



Cheers,
Roger

 

[Steely_Dan]

Total, it's currently drifting into Origami Lore territory.

 

[Li Shenron]

I need only one Knowledge or Lore skill, with description of its mechanics e.g. a small table of typical DC, including when to grant a check or when to just assume automatic success.

The only skill should then have a list of examples, the most common 8-10 topics, with clear mention that each topic is a separate skill, and simple guidelines for the DM about how to make your own Knowledge skills and how to handle narrow vs wide lores differently.

Really, there is no need for full explanation of what knowledge each of the lore skills grant you... Do you really need an explanation for what "History" or "Heraldry" covers?

Knowledge skills are a mechanic for getting "clues" that may useful for the story, with some investment cost required*. There is no way in the world to make these skills work in a strongly regimented way. Better to recognize that their nature is to be vaguely defined, open-ended, and DM-controlled.

*I am fine however with the idea of giving each class a knowledge skill or two for free

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Any Knowledge skills are too much IMO. I would rather just be fairly generous assuming that the PCs automatically know basic things related to their class and background, and then have them seek out and roleplay with NPCs if they need special information.

In my experience, this creates a lot of unfairness in a group. Basically it all boils down to who knows the game better in real life and who can explain it better. Too much metagaming in my opinion.