D&D 5E Poll: What is a Level 1 PC?

[Cadence]

Average person can do a fine job of crafting stuff without being high level.

+2 for 14 in the relevant stat (seems pretty reasonable), +5 for skill ranks (we'll say he's level 2), +3 for Skill Focus: Profession (whatever), +2 for masterwork tools related to the profession.

+12 total. Taking 10, that's a guaranteed success for quite a few tasks. Taking 20, that's a guaranteed success for most everything.

Which is one of the biggest reasons I think the 1st level characters are best thought of as having completed a solid apprenticeship (or the equivalent) and be a journeyman now. And, if the world they're on has 50-80% of people tied up doing non-boundry-pushing farming, that's well above median (if not average).

 

[timASW]

Going back here. I did - 1/2 is the slowest, used by both Commoners and Wizards. You round down, of course.

Also, you gave your 1st level minstrel 6 ranks in Perform. And let him take 20 when, as was pointed out, there's a consequence for failure.

Are you sure the math in 3.x can't get overwhelming at times?
O

Clearly overwhelmed you, since you think a 4th level commoner is a match for a 1st level fighter, dispite it being demonstrated, over and over, and over, that mathematically they are not.

I doubt they took into account deliberate obtuseness though. Clearly a design flaw.

Fortunately, we here at ENWorld do take deliberate obtuseness into account when we're moderating. So since I already warned you, I'm giving you a vacation from the thread. ~ KM

 

[timASW]

Which is, IMO, an issue mainly because your max skill ranks are tied to your level which is in turn tied to everything else. It's an inherent flaw to a class/level system that tries to cleanly integrate skills for everyday tasks and pigeonhole the world into classes. O

The alternative however is that the NPC's max skills are whatever the hell the GM wants them to be. A situation that I find to be far, far, more flawed then anything in an NPC class system.

Although to be honest, I never actually used any of the classes accept commoner.

Gaurds, sages, shamans, etc all had regular class levels from PC classes. But still, it would be a much better system then complete DM fiat.

 

[Mallus]

The alternative however is that the NPC's max skills are whatever the hell the GM wants them to be. A situation that I find to be far, far, more flawed then anything in an NPC class system.

To be fair, NPCs in 3e still have whatever the hell skill ranks the GM decides they should be.

The only difference is the NPCs are required to have commensurate combat abilities. So the only way to make a violin virtuoso is to make an ass-kicking violin virtuoso.

It's kinda great.

(and quite similar to the worlds of Stephen Chow movies, cf. Shaolin Soccer, Kung Fu Hustle).

But it's utter nonsense.

(decoupling skills from class levels makes the game more realistic/less ridiculous)

 

[timASW]

To be fair, NPCs in 3e still have whatever the hell the GM decides they should be.

The only difference is they are required to have commensurate combat abilities. So the only way to make a violin virtuoso is to make an ass-kicking violin virtuoso.

It's kinda great.

(and quite similar to the worlds of Stephen Chow movies, cf. Shaolin Soccer, Kung Fu Hustle[/i]).

But it's utter nonsense.

Sort of. But you do have to at least put a little thought into why the hell this guy is a 10th level violin master. I mean, to be honest with the DC system that guys a really, really, incredible player.

Creating that story for yourself about how he got so good and why he's where he is is the sort of thing that can then turn a very forgettable minstrel in a tavern into a remarkable NPC that recurs in your campaign as a source of information and plot hooks.

 

[Obryn]

Clearly overwhelmed you, since you think a 4th level commoner is a match for a 1st level fighter, dispite it being demonstrated, over and over, and over, that mathematically they are not.

I doubt they took into account deliberate obtuseness though. Clearly a design flaw.

Wait, what? When did I talk about Fighters? I'm talking about town guards - Warriors, another NPC class. And Experts. And pointing out that despite your claims that this is all easy and that every DM can do it in their sleep, that you're still making mistakes. Which goes to show more or less the opposite - that this is a lot of moving parts to see how good someone is at turnip farming.

...And that looks like a personal dig? Or am I misinterpreting?

The alternative however is that the NPC's max skills are whatever the hell the GM wants them to be. A situation that I find to be far, far, more flawed then anything in an NPC class system.

Although to be honest, I never actually used any of the classes accept commoner.

Gaurds, sages, shamans, etc all had regular class levels from PC classes. But still, it would be a much better system then complete DM fiat.

Which is why you (1) just use a table like I'm suggesting, or (2) accept that the illusionism of calculating numbers is still DM fiat, because between levels, ability scores, and feats the numbers can be tweaked immensely. Fiat with a process attached is just extended fiat.

-O

 

[hamstertamer]

I've never had NPC Classed NPCs go higher then 2nd level unless there was good reason. I have had some aristocrates go up to 10th level though. But past 5th level never really happens.

The Royal Blacksmith (2nd level Expert Human Age 56)
This wizen looking man with a brutish attitude has lost some stamina over the years but has kept all his skill.
Str 12 Dex 10 Con 9 Int 16 Wis 12 Cha 9
Hp: 7
AC: 11 (Leather Apron)
Attack: +2 w/ smithing hammer 1d4 +1
Fort -1, Reflex +0, Will +4
Skills: Weaponsmithing +11, Armorsmithing +11, Blacksmithing +8, Bowmaking +8, locksmithing +8, Trapmaking +8, Appraise +8, KS: Exotic Metals +8, Open Lock +5
Skill Focus: Weaponsmithing, Skill Focus: Armorsmithing

The above feels right for me. This would be your typical human master blacksmith in my game world. Very few people would be better than this but of course there would exceptions like the PCs.

 

[B.T.]

A 4th-level commoner would probably beat a 1st-level fighter if you're using WBL. Using the standard 25 point buy (which is ridiculously weak but whatevs)...

STRENGTH: 16
DEXTERITY: 14
CONSTITUTION: 14
INTELLIGENCE: 10
WISDOM: 8 (rofl)
CHARISMA: 8

Do those stats suck? Yes. But that's the problem with the point buy system and 3e overall. This particular commoner will be the farmhand who wants to use a sword. Let's start with the basics.

HIT POINTS: The fighter has 1d10 + 2, or 12 HP. The commoner, on the other hand, has 4d4 + 8, or 19.5.

Advantage: commoner.

ATTACK BONUS: The fighter has a base attack bonus of +1. His Strength score gives him a +3 bonus on attack and damage rolls with melee weapons; his Dexterity gives him a +2 bonus to ranged weapons. The commoner has the same stats in this scenario, but his attack bonus is +2 (and he'll have masterwork weapons, as detailed below). On the other hand, the fighter will spend one of his feats on Weapon Focus because the PHB doesn't give him much in the way of options. Thus, the fighter is +5 (m) / +3 (r) vs. +6 (m) / +5 (r).

Advantage: commoner.

ARMOR, WEAPONS, AND WEALTH: These three are all tied together. The fighter is proficient with all armor and simple/martial weapons, giving him the edge in that department. The commoner, on the other hand, is going to spend two of his three feats on Armor Proficiency (Light) and Simple Weapon Proficiency because he's trying to be the fightingest farmer he can be. This still leaves the fighter with an edge. However, the commoner has significantly more wealth than the fighter. Now, I can't recall exactly how NPC wealth-by-level works, but I think it's roughly half of normal WBL. Normal WBL is 5,400gp for a level 4 PC, so I'm going to lowball the commoner's wealthy as being around 2,000gp. The important bit is that the commoner has enough for a masterwork weapon / armor. The fighter has but a meager 175gp. How shall we spend this?

The commoner is going to spend his final feat on Shield Proficiency, and he will use a heavy shield. He'll use a masterwork morningstar, which gives him reach. He will also use a masterwork light crossbow. He will wear a chain shirt.

The fighter is going to use a bastard sword (35gp), heavy steel shield (20gp), scale mail (50gp), and shortbow and arrows (31gp).

All things considered:

ARMOR CLASS: 19 (fighter) vs. 18 (commoner).
MELEE WEAPONS: +5 vs. AC (1d10 + 3) vs. +6 vs. AC (1d8 + 3).
RANGED WEAPONS: +3 vs. AC (1d6) vs. +5 vs. AC (1d8).

Advantage: It's something of a wash. The fighter has a fair advantage at range because he can reload his bow as a free action, allowing him to keep a distance between himself and the commoner. On the other hand, the commoner has an advantage in attack bonus and his AC is almost as strong as the fighter's. For now, I'm going to say the commoner wins out.

MISCELLANEOUS: The fighter has the advantage in his feats. He's going to spend his feats as follows: Improved Initiative (always good), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) (why not?), and uhhh....Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword).

The fighter has a big advantage here because Improved Initiative is a really great feat. The rest of it...well, using 1d10 instead of 1d8 is okay, and Weapon Focus is the default "hurrdurrrrr fighter" feat.

Overall, here's what the statblocks look like:

FIGHTER
HP: 12
AC: 19
Sword: +5, 1d10 + 3
Bow: +3, 1d6

COMMONER
HP: 19.5
AC: 18
Morningstar: +6, 1d8 + 3
Crossbow: +5, 1d8.

Who wins the fighter? The commoner, most likely. The only scenario where the fighter wins is if he can kite the commoner, and that's unlikely to happen. The fighter is more likely to act first, but the commoner is liable to outlast him. I don't feel like calculating average damage per round. The fighter's is slightly better (+1 average damage), but the commoner has more HP, so I'm going to put my money on the commoner.

Now, once the fighter hits level 2 and gets a few more coins in his purse, he's going to beat the tar out of the commoner, but for level 1, they're fairly evenly matched.

I'm okay with this.

 

[Manbearcat]

If -

expert, noncombatant NPC classes actually (i) advanced in level while receiving no (internally consistency damaging...which is a bit defeating as it appears to be the point of the process) formal combat skill advancement (BAB increase, weapon/armor proficiency, HP increase) and the system also possessed (ii) a formatted non-combat encounter framework by which they can gain XP thus advancing their non-combat skills

then -

the system would yield a derived result that is worth the process. As is (without i or ii), you cannot have an expert cobbler, cartwright, alchemist, tinkerer, engineer, miller, brewer, etc without assuming that either their training was under Mr Miyagi in a "wax on wax off" fashion, or that every NPC in the world is forcibly conscripted into their local militias/guard/armed forces to serve either seasonally or daily while the rest of their time is spent practicing their trade/peddling their wares. Or something else equally binding, absurd and internal consistency defying.

If you don't gain internal consistency, then the process inherent in the unified mechanics is gratuitously tedious. I'm not sure what the gain is here (for the aggregate time lost in prep throughout the course of a campaign) when I can just say, yeah, this cartwright is 4th generation and the best in the region. If you want to mount a self-repeater ballista to kill bandits with on your caravanning up the Trade Road, he's your man. His skill rank is (whatever it needs to be). Oh yeah, he's never seen a fight in his life and wouldn't know a short sword from a broom so if you're going to take him along to troubleshoot, then you better keep him safe.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Using the standard 25 point buy (which is ridiculously weak but whatevs)...

You're already off on the wrong foot! NPC's in 3e should have 10's in all stats unless adjusted by race.

Plus, it makes sense when you consider that this 4th level commoner has probably killed a lot more goblins in his field with his rusty rake than this 1st level fighter has killed at Fighter College -- he's 4th level after all!